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Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 17/10/2014 08:10

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
TheHoneyBadger · 01/12/2014 20:47

i shouldn't have thought so unless mnhq have taken to censoring rabbis who are critical of zionism Confused

QnBoudi · 01/12/2014 22:27

Talking of censorship, whether official or 'self-imposed', it's good to see principles don't have to be compromised: mondoweiss.net/2014/12/Israeli-nominee-funds. 5 broken cameras is a great watch. So too is Jerusalem, the east side story (think that's on you tube).

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 06:53

Michael Portillo's Great Continental Railway Journeys - Haifa to the Negev is on BBC at 9pm on Wednesday. The listing says he "learns the roots of the modern-day conflict between Israelis and Palestinians."

sergeantmajor · 02/12/2014 13:34

HoneyBadger: "sorry not to trawl back for them but i recall links to historical documents and research showing zionist movement leaders actively blocking the evacuation of jews from nazi germany prior to WWII even though people were willing to take them and it was known what danger was lurking on the horizon because unless it was palestine and got them their political goals it wasn't good enough."

Maybe it is worth you having a trawl and finding those links. It's rather preposterous as a claim and has the whiff of a smear. Do you really think the Nazis were influenced by the wishes of some Jews in British Palestine? I know that the Palestinian leadership of the day was pro-Hitler but I doubt Hitler danced to their tune either. Either way, the influx of Jews into Palestine in this period rather belies this.

It's not strictly relevant to this debate, but this is characteristic of the wild smears found throughout this thread, so I think it is worth pause for thought.

You continue "it is a part of why many jewish organisations are anti zionist." Actually, the majority of Jewish organisations and communities are in fact Zionist. The minority that aren't tend to fall into two groups, (a) certain ultra religious groups who disagree with any Jewish state as it does not fit their messianic predictions, or (b) those who are unhappy with the current geo-political situation, especially the impact on the establishment of the Jewish state on the Palestinians.

I would be astounded if you can find a Jew who is anti-Zionist on the grounds that you suggest.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/12/2014 14:02

they are there if you want to see them go find them.

there were also several movements of anti zionist rabbis shared on the early threads - go ahead and astound yourself.

no, it is not down to others to go back over the threads to repost the links that you didn't bother to read in the first place.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/12/2014 14:02

it wasn't jews in british palestine btw. that was not who was orchestrating the push for palestine back then.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/12/2014 14:15

"R"The Millions That Could Have Been Saved" by I.DombIt is an historical fact that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that: a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments: a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees. b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war. c) No ransom will be paid This response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.

These treacherous Zionist leaders betrayed their own flesh and blood. Zionism was never an option for Jewish salvation. Quite the opposite, it was a formula for human beings to be used as pawns for the power trip of several desperadoes. A perfidy! A betrayal beyond description!

In 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved. The same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

The British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed.

On December 17, 1942 both houses of the British Parliament declared its readiness to find temporary refuge for endangered persons. The British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany. This motion received within two weeks a total of 277 Parliamentary signatures. On Jan. 27, when the next steps were being pursued by over 100 M.P.'s and Lords, a spokesman for the Zionists announced that the Jews would oppose the motion because Palestine was omitted. [Source]

On Feb. 16, 1943 Roumania offered 70,000 Jewish refugees of the Trans-Dniestria to leave at the cost of $50 each. This was publicized in the New York papers. Yitzhak Greenbaum, Chairman of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency, addressing the Zionist Executive Council in Tel Aviv Feb. 18 1943 said, "when they asked me, "couldn't you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said NO! and I say again, NO!...one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance." On Feb. 24, 1943 Stephen Wise, President of the American Jewish Congress and leader of the American Zionists issued a public refusal to this offer and declared no collection of funds would seem justified. In 1944, the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People called upon the American government to establish a War Refugee Board. Stephen Wise testifying before a special committee of Congress objected to this proposal. [Source]

During the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weizman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weizman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe".

And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist "statesmen" lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State.

In 1947 Congressman William Stration sponsored a bill to immediately grant entry to the United States of 400,000 displaced persons. The bill was not passed after it was publicly denounced by the Zionist leadership. [Source]

These facts are read with consternation and unbearable shame. How can it be explained that at a time during the last phase of the war, when the Nazis were willing to barter Jews for money, partly because of their desires to establish contact with the Western powers which, they believed, were under Jewish influence, how was it possible one asks that the self-proclaimed "Jewish leaders" did not move heaven and earth to save the last remnant of their brothers?

On Feb. 23, 1956 the Hon. J. W. Pickersgill, Minister for Immigration was asked in the Canadian House of Commons "would he open the doors of Canada to Jewish refugees". He replied "the government has made no progress in that direction because the government of Israel....does not wish us to do so". [Source]

In 1972, the Zionist leadership successfully opposed an effort in the United States Congress to allow 20,000-30,000 Russian refugees to enter the United States. Jewish relief organizations, Joint and HIAS, were being pressured to abandon these refugees in Vienna, Rome and other Europiean cities. [Source]
The pattern is clear!!! Humanitarian rescue efforts are subverted to narrow Zionist interests."

extract from here

TheHoneyBadger · 02/12/2014 14:21

another, shock horror you'll be astounded, anti zionist movement of worldwide jews can be found here

that's it i'm afraid for now as i'm not your personal secretary and if you're ignorant enough to think all jews are pro zionism it is you with the need to educate yourself. the jewish population worldwide is massively diverse not one homogenous lump of pro apartheid sheep.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/12/2014 14:23

you'd have been truly horrified with a jewish leader i worked with in a chaplaincy role who said we should focus on palestinian people on holocaust day as he was sick of zionists beating their chest about the jews in nazi germany whilst totally dishonoring their memory and what they went through whist practicing genocide upon another people.

QnBoudi · 02/12/2014 18:33

Netanyahu losing control, firing 2 ministers. He's got the defiant, unhearing Blairite sense of self-righteousness about him.

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 19:29

TheHoneyBadger My response to that Jewish leader's comment would be: By all means hold a separate event to campaign for justice in Palestine. But why should the Jews murdered in Europe 70 years ago be blamed for the contemporary actions of another country? Israel’s current wrongdoings shouldn't prevent Holocaust remembrance. Is Zionism normally promoted at Holocaust memorial events in the UK?

QnBoudi · 02/12/2014 19:36

France now voted in favour of recognising Palestine. Israel's reaction? This "will harm the peace process"! How does that fit with the rhetoric of netanyahu's speech on the anniversary of Rabin's murder? "Jerusalem was ours, it is ours, and it will remain so for ever..." All while dissing those they're presumably 'making peace with' as 'slanderous extremists' 'contaminated by terror' engaged in building a 'front of hatred' , 'rewriting history' and 'spreading lies'. They can't have it both ways!

PigletJohn · 02/12/2014 19:51

" But why should the Jews murdered in Europe 70 years ago be blamed for the contemporary actions of another country"

Just to check, have you seen anybody on here say that they should?

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 19:56

TheHoneyBadger - you mention links to historical documents and research showing zionist movement leaders actively blocking the evacuation of jews from nazi germany prior to WWII even though people were willing to take them and it was known what danger was lurking on the horizon because unless it was palestine and got them their political goals it wasn't good enough.??ie. people died unnecessarily because zionists felt it more politically expedient for them to do so than for them to be saved in terms of achieving the claiming of israel.

On Thread 1 I asked you for some links - you said you’d already posted them, but these must have been in your posts that got deleted. You then mentioned the True Torah Jews as the source of these claims. They provide no links or references on the most recent URL you posted, other than referring to an article that was published in the Wall Street Journal in 1976.

If, as they say, these are proven historical facts, then I’m sure you’ll easily be able to find some links to books or articles by reputable historians.

For example, the date December 17, 1942 - your link states “both houses of the British Parliament declared its readiness to find temporary refuge for endangered persons.” Here is the relevant Hansard transcript and there is also a BBC website here about the significance of this day.

Anthony Eden's statement: "We should like to do all we possibly can. There are, obviously, certain security formalities which have to be considered. It would clearly be the desire of the United Nations to do everything they could to provide wherever possible an asylum for these people, but the House will understand that there are immense geographical and other difficulties in the matter.. "

In any case, if the UK had been able and willing to somehow rescue Jews from concentration camps and move them to British colonies, how would the Zionist leadership in Palestine have been able to stop them, even if it wanted to do so?

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 19:59

PJ - that's what I took HoneyBadger's Jewish leader comment to mean.
Otherwise why focus on Palestine at a Holocaust memorial day?

PigletJohn · 02/12/2014 20:06

Halfdrunk "By all means hold a separate event to campaign for justice in Palestine." appears to disagree with the State of Israel:

"On 23 March 2011, the Knesset approved, by a vote of 37 to 25, a change to the budget, giving the Israeli finance minister the discretion to reduce government funding to any non-governmental organization (NGO) that organizes Nakba commemoration events."

When they tried to leave for their quiet ceremony, activists were told by high ranking officers on the site that they are forbidden to do so, and that anyone trying to skip over the fences would be immediately arrested.

PigletJohn · 02/12/2014 20:07

haldfrink "that's what I took HoneyBadger's Jewish leader comment to mean."

you are inventing words and views that were not present.

Shlep · 02/12/2014 20:17

I'm horrified at any Jewish person, Jewish leader or non Jewish person tbh who would say we should focus on the Palestinians on holocaust Memorial Day. That smacks of 'didn't you learn anything from the Holocaust?' Type stuff. I'm a Zionist, fwiw.

Ignoring the millions who died and suffered just to make a stupid point is wrong. Sure, have another day a year remembering the millions around the world living in conflict zones and facing discrimination, including the Palestinians- I would fully support that. But saying we should not remember our ancestors purely because a country which happens to be (mainly) Jewish is currently at war with/committing war crimes against another is wrong.

I would also be horrified at anyone making a pro Israel point when we should be remembering the Holocaust, but I could understand it more. Israel's actions partly come from what Jewish survivors learnt from it (and the previous thousand years of discrimination and slaughter) not that that excuses anything obviously.

QnBoudi · 02/12/2014 20:20

I assume George Deek thinks Israel should no longer mark holocaust memorial day, given his call to look fwd rather than back.

Shlep · 02/12/2014 20:39

TheHoney did I...did I read that write?

You are saying that Zionist groups from Israel purposely allowed Jews to die to ensure a Jewish state was created? You are agreeing with one of the most common anti Semitic ideas?

You know the True Torah Jews said that the six million Jews killed died as a punishment from G-d because of Zionism? 'More than six million holy people had to die as punishment for the stupidity of zionism'. You are agreeing and quoting from a site which is blaming the Holocaust on the Jews (even if they are Jewish, they are stupid anti semites)? Do you know why these people aren't Zionists? Do you think that that is a sane, sensible reason kt be anti Zionist?

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 20:42

OK PigletJohn, please imagine you are talking to a representative from the UK Jewish community. He/she says, "We should focus on Palestinian people on Holocaust day."

How would you respond to this statement?

Shlep I agree.

QnBoudi - I don't think anyone should stop marking Holocaust Memorial Day, or Nakba Day. It is very important to learn from the past, to ensure it is not forgotten, and where appropriate, to acknowledge and apologise for past wrongs. But I think it is also important to look forward as well as back if we are to have any hope of a better future.

Gfplux · 02/12/2014 20:48

Just joining, nothing to say at the moment but just reading what has been said is almost.......

Gfplux · 02/12/2014 20:53

........Overwhelming

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 20:58

QnBoudi, If Americans Knew mentions the fact that the World Zionist Congress didn’t attend the Evian Conference in 1938. However, Golda Meir did attend on behalf of the Palestinian Jewish community but was only allowed to be an observer. Were the world leaders all planning to admit huge numbers of Jewish refugees, but because the World Zionist Congress wasn’t there decided not to do so? I think not. Virtually all countries severely restricted Jewish immigration prior to and during WW2. They just didn’t want to take more than a small number of immigrants. There were also continued British-imposed restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine (illegal immigration stepped up after the Evian conference).

halfdrunkcoffee · 02/12/2014 21:13

PigletJohn, you still haven't answered my question. I was talking about the UK. Please imagine you are talking to a representative from the UK Jewish community. He/she says, "We should focus on Palestinian people on the Holocaust day."

How would you respond to this statement?

I think the Knesset's decision was wrong, and the police were completely wrong to disrupt a peaceful protest to raise awareness of the Nakba. However, this was in Israel on its Independence Day - not Britain on Holocaust Memorial Day. Israel's Independence Day and the Holocaust Memorial Day are not held on the same date.