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Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 17/10/2014 08:10

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

OP posts:
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12
sergeantmajor · 26/11/2014 19:20

PigletJohn - "I can't believe that even sergeantmajor would seek to deny that the creation and expansion of Israel was and is an aim and a result of Zionism."

I didn't say that (or anything like that). Wtf?

Perhaps QnBoudi can confirm that these alleged Zionist manipulators of world governments were definitely not Jewish? And that the use of a malicious anti-semitic trope was therefore just a coincidence?

Why is global activism for the Palestinian cause considered noble, but the same for the Jewish state deemed to be "fierce manipulation" anyway?

When QnB challenges the very foundation of the state of Israel, it makes me doubt that she is happy with its existence within any borders. Which takes me back to my earlier (still unanswered question) - does Palestinian self-determination lead to the end of Jewish self-determination?

PigletJohn · 26/11/2014 19:33

Well, it certainly appears that Israeli self-determination leads to the end of Palestinian self-determination, doesn't it?

halfdrunkcoffee · 26/11/2014 22:34

QnBoudi - you state "However, any of the above discussion is simply theoretical if you take the view - for which there is a strong line of legal argument - that the UN resolution is not/ was never legally binding!"

Do you mean that Zionism should be abandoned and a one-state solution promoted as the only sustainable option for the region, or that the existence of Israel since 1948 has been illegal - in which case do you regard the whole country as one big illegal settlement?

sergeantmajor you state "Why is global activism for the Palestinian cause considered noble, but the same for the Jewish state deemed to be "fierce manipulation" anyway?" Sorry I know I've mentioned this before but I keep thinking of my grandparents who went out campaigning and fundraising in support of Israel's creation in the 1940s in a way that perhaps reflects the pro-Palestinian activism of today. (They were not Jewish themselves, and they certainly weren't powerful manipulators of the US government).

sergeantmajor · 27/11/2014 11:55

PigletJohn - I support self determination for the Palestinians alongside self determination for the Jews. A two state solution. I am troubled by rhetoric which challenges the right of either nation to achieve this.

sergeantmajor · 27/11/2014 11:57

PigletJohn ... and you still haven't answered my question

PigletJohn · 27/11/2014 12:02

I support self determination for the Palestinians alongside self determination for the Jews. A two state solution. I am greatly troubled by invasion, occupation, annexation and Illegal Settlements which destroy the ability of the weaker nation to achieve this.

TheHoneyBadger · 27/11/2014 12:24

i think israel has two choices (other than carrying on with war crimes and ending up totally ostracised by the international community):

  1. be ready to fairly divide land and resources between an israeli state and a palestinian one. the cost being loss of land and resources they've become accustomed to and the bonus being able to remain a 'jewish state' with jewish interests in the majority.
  1. be ready to face being a minority in a one state solution with democratic representation and full equality for all citizens.

the problem is that israel doesn't fancy either

TheHoneyBadger · 27/11/2014 12:25

but those really are the only two fair, reasonable, legal options.

sergeantmajor · 27/11/2014 19:29

HoneyBadger's option 1 has been the subject of many peace proposals from the Israelis over the years. In a nutshell, land for peace.

The withdrawal from Gaza has left Israel exposed to a barrage of Hamas missiles. It would be madness to expose the densely populated regions that abut the west bank to the same treatment. Not to mention the slenderness of the territory from border to coast, vulnerable to a swift invasion ('67, '73 anyone?).

A peaceful Palestine next to a peaceful Israel - that's my wish. But until there is a realistic chance of peaceful coexistence, you can't blame Israel for not 'fancying' complete withdrawal from the west bank.

As for option 2 - you won't find many states willing to obliterate their national identity and independence, especially not a nation that has yearned for self determination for millenia.

PigletJohn · 27/11/2014 21:00

" It would be madness to..."

...permit the Palestinians self-determination.

I'm sure Apartheid South Africa felt the same about them Blacks.

Yruapita · 28/11/2014 01:08

Israel is not exactly moving towards peace though is it? Netanyahu keeps calling Abbas an unsuitable partner for peace talks but the reality is that Netanyahu is not the guy to make a peace deal, as Mr Clinton put it. You guys are utterly deluded thinking that Israel is on the side of peace abd enlightenment. Deluded like apartheid South Africa.

Netanyahu trying to push to declare israel a jewish state and therefore further alienating and marginalising the Arabs is not conducive to peace. It is apartheid in action. And wtf is he playing at revoking residency rights of the wife of a Palestinian guy whose house was razed to the ground? Palestinian Destitution and destruction will not bring about peace, it will just bring about more destruction.

PigletJohn · 28/11/2014 01:22

As sergeantmajor explains, Israel is not willing to have a 1-state system because it would mean giving Palestinians rights, and it is not willing to have a 2-state system, because it would mean giving Palestinians rights.

So it will continue taking land, destroying homes, ethnically cleansing, and killing Palestinians until there are none left to cause a problem.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/11/2014 09:40

i said a FAIR division of land and resources - that obviously includes proper access to ports and the freedom to be able to import and export without interference.

gaza hardly counts as an example.

TheHoneyBadger · 28/11/2014 09:40

and fair is not millions squished into a locked in cage.

KareninsGirl · 28/11/2014 13:01

How do o add a video link on my android phone please?

QnBoudi · 29/11/2014 21:33

Hi again - belated response to a couple of questions. Firstly, in terms of global causes, SM misrepresents me by suggesting I 'only accept' support for the Palestinian cause. The truth is that I am hugely bothered by many of the activities undertaken by Zionists in the lead up to the creation of Israel (gun running to arm the terrorist factions and the bloodshed this inevitably resulted in, the widespread and blatant bribery of and threats to international politicians/countries to support it via UN resolution, the strong arm tactics to force unwilling displaced Jews to relocate to Israel after ww2, the work behind the scenes lobbying other western nations to refuse to allow Jews to immigrate elsewhere - resulting in hundreds being stuck in limbo on ships or drowning when they were sunk - etc). None of this was 'noble' action, even though it was done in the name of or under the guise of a 'noble cause'. As half drunk has pointed out, action on both sides of this event can be more or less noble (grandparents' support vs the recent synagogue atrocity).

Secondly, by pointing out that the creation of Israel may arguably have no legal foundation, I am not suggesting that the decision now simply be retracted. But I do believe that situation and any related wrongs visited on the Palestinians should be acknowledged and made good somehow if things are to move forward. It cannot be swept under the carpet was it has been/probably will continue to be. As the Holocaust is remembered, in the hope that we will learn from history's ugly lessons, so should the Nakba be remembered and learnt from. (Btw, Has anyone seen Lia Tarachansky's film On the Side of the Road- an Israeli perspective of the nakhba? Am waiting til it's out on dvd).)

Thirdly, I agree with THB's 2 options (plus add i may have a view but it's not ultimately for me to decide!) and rebut SM's claim that the 'land for peace deals' represent a Palestinian 'rejection of this solution' because - critically - they didn't actually meet the stated criterion of FAIRness which THB included in her options.

PS KareninsG, sorry, I don't know how to add links properly - that's why I painstakingly copy them all out! On the other hand, I suspect many people don't bother to follow them, and it's probably useful if people can see what sort of source it is from its name.

halfdrunkcoffee · 30/11/2014 19:59

QnBoudi - As the Holocaust is remembered, in the hope that we will learn from history's ugly lessons, so should the Nakba be remembered and learnt from.

I hadn't heard about the film you mention, but I've read about the work of Zochrot (Remembering), an Israeli NGO that aims to raise awareness of the Nakba in Israel. It has published a guidebook (article about it here in the Economist) aimed at Jewish Israelis.

Ari Shavit's book "My Promised Land" also includes a harrowing account of the expulsion of Palestinians from Lydda in 1948. Shavit's book has been very popular in America (it was written in English) so he may well reach a wider audience than, for example, Ilan Pappe, who has written extensively on the nakba. I know some have dismissed his book as sanctimonious handwringing but I found it very interesting.

the work behind the scenes lobbying other western nations to refuse to allow Jews to immigrate elsewhere

Do you have any links for this, and is it in reference to before or after WW2?

But I do believe that situation and any related wrongs visited on the Palestinians should be acknowledged and made good somehow if things are to move forward.

I wonder if there could ever be something along the lines of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa to acknowledge wrongs on both sides.

On one hand there seem to be all these NGOs doing good work, which give hope for peace, and on the other hand growing racism and belligerence, which don't.

TheHoneyBadger · 30/11/2014 23:36

there were loads of links on the early threads halfdrunk

QnBoudi · 01/12/2014 00:10

Thanks for the direction to 'My Promised Land' - will look it up.

Re actions to ensure Jews moved to Palestine rather than elsewhere, a couple of sources here.

Harry Howard of US State Department (and US delegate to UN) stated: "... there was discussion of liberalizing American immigration laws in this period. The Zionists opposed that liberalization on the ground that this would not be a solution as far as they were concerned. They wanted a political, not necessarily a humanitarian, solution --that is, they wanted a state. Mr. Truman himself has testified in his Memoirs that he was never under such pressure on any other problem. In this problem he was under terrific pressure." (para 68, trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/howardhn#transcript).

According to Baruch Kimmerling: "Grodzinsky tells us with great pain how Ben-Gurion and other Zionist leaders vetoed the immigration of 1,000 orphans, who were in physical and emotional danger as a result of the harsh winter of 1945, from the camps in Germany to England, where the Jewish community had managed to secure them permits. Another group of roughly 500 children of camp inhabitants was barred, after Zionist intervention, from reaching France, whose rabbinical institutions had offered them safe haven." (www.thenation.com/article/israels-culture-martyrdom?page=full#)

Kimmerling also states: " Zertal makes clear in an illuminating discussion of the odyssey of the 4,500 survivors from German camps who set sail in July 1947 as "illegal immigrants" on a ship later named Exodus. The real story of the ship was far less glorious than the one told in Leon Uris's 1958 bestseller and Otto Preminger's 1960 film. When the ship embarked, the UN Special Committee on Palestine was holding discussions and Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, the primary governing body of the state-in-formation, felt that the plight of Jewish refugees in Europe needed to be dramatized in order to attract more sympathy for the Jewish struggle over Palestine. The British authorities had refused to let the immigrants disembark in Palestine, or even to take refuge in transitional camps in Cyprus, forcing the boat to be redirected back to Germany. To prevent such a ghastly outcome, Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann persuaded the French Prime Minister, Leon Blum, to host the refugees. Ben-Gurion rejected this solution out of hand, and the poor survivors remained on board for seven months."

And from Alison Weir's organisation: “The Zionist movement...interfered with and hindered other organizations, Jewish and non-Jewish, whenever it imagined that their activity, political or humanitarian, was at variance with Zionist aims or in competition with them, even when these might be helpful to Jews, even when it was a question of life and death...Beit Zvi documents the Zionist leadership’s indifference to saving Jews from the Nazi menace except in cases in which the Jews could be brought to Palestine...[e.g.] the readiness of the dictator of the Dominican Republic, Rafael Trujillo, to absorb one hundred thousand refugees and the sabotaging of this idea — as well as others, like proposals to settle the Jews inAlaska and the Philippines — by the Zionist movement... (ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html).

QnBoudi · 01/12/2014 00:12

I'm so rubbish with the links! Sorry - try these instead!

www.thenation.com/article/israels-culture-martyrdom?page=full#
ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

QnBoudi · 01/12/2014 00:17

Very heartening to hear about the work done by Zochrot. Let's hope they are not silenced. If waving a Palestinian flag is soon to be a 'crime' punishable by e.g. the destruction of the perpetrator's family home, I worry that they too will be punished for taking such an 'unpatriotic line.'

QnBoudi · 01/12/2014 00:21

And if the sort of actions described above don't constitute 'manipulation' of 'facts on the ground' in pursuit of political capital, then I don't know what does!

sergeantmajor · 01/12/2014 14:50

I found this speech by an Israeli Arab diplomat very thoughtful and inspirational and should be of interest to those on all sides of the debate:

www.miff.no/Englisharticles/2014/10/04ThebestspeechanIsraelidiplomateverheld.htm?fb_action_ids=10152397899570946&fb_action_types=og.comments

TheHoneyBadger · 01/12/2014 15:08

sorry not to trawl back for them but i recall links to historical documents and research showing zionist movement leaders actively blocking the evacuation of jews from nazi germany prior to WWII even though people were willing to take them and it was known what danger was lurking on the horizon because unless it was palestine and got them their political goals it wasn't good enough.

ie. people died unnecessarily because zionists felt it more politically expedient for them to do so than for them to be saved in terms of achieving the claiming of israel.

it is a part of why many jewish organisations are anti zionist. they have remembered the reality of how little jewish lives were valued by a political elite that saw only their agenda.

halfdrunkcoffee · 01/12/2014 18:02

Weren't most of those links deleted by MNHQ HoneyBadger?