Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Backinthering - Israeli forces shoot at the place from where rockets are launched. If launched from a hospital, as reported by Finnish TV, then that is where the retaliation is targeted. (Actually the Hamas command centre was found beneath the hospital. Unusual choice for a military base, wouldn't you say?).

There is a distinct lack of comfort coming from those who condemn Israel whenever Hamas is mentioned.

I think it is sensible for all concerned to distinguish the suffering people of Gaza from the fundamentalist death cult that runs it.

And compassionate British people no doubt feel uncomfortable to find that in supporting the people of Gaza, they find themselves on the side of Islamic fundamentalist totalitarians who stand against every compassionate liberal value we hold dear.

Anyone still think that Hamas are serving the best interests of the people of Gaza?"

no one has said they are. Hamas firing rockets does not negate the fact that Israel have killed 1800 Palestinians in the last month including UN refuges, hospitals and mosques. How many did Hamas kill?
It would have been better for everyone if a resolution was reached through peaceful negotiations 30 years ago before Hamas even existed but this did not happen instead the opression got worse and the settlements in WB increased. Is it any wonder that Hamas came into existence? As an aside to this is the wikileaks allegation that Israel created Hamas to undermine PLO.

The only news sources I can find about the rockets being launched from a hospital are Israeli or non mainstream right-wing.
Nothing from any sources I would trust.

Btw I'm not an Hamas apologist, just fucking bored of them being used as an excuse for Israel to perpetrate war crimes and atrocities whilst making ever-wilder claims about what Hamas is doing.
Not falling for it. It's not Hamas that killed 1800 people.

"Anyone still think that Hamas are serving the best interests of the people of Gaza?"
No.

Israel is targeting UN safe havens, where people have been told their children will be safe. There are no circumstances in which that is acceptable.

Haven't we done the Hamas arguments over and over?

Yes Backin, that is what I was trying and failing to articulate.

Baroness Warsi, back in January 2006:

"‘I think what's happened in the Middle East with the election of Hamas is actually an opportunity and I think that's the way we've got to see it. When groups that practise violence are suddenly propelled into power through a democratic process they get responsibility and responsibility can be a tremendously taming factor. And I think that Hamas, when it realises that it wants a safe and stable and prosperous Palestine for its people, will realise that the way to deal with that is through dialogue and democracy and not through violence."

If only. Her optimism looks rather displaced now, doesn't it?

I am having real problems with getting onto MN this eve, it is just me?

Springheeled - you feel that you have done the Hamas argument over and over. However, we are talking about the Gaza conflict. Are we to talk about the conflict without talking about Hamas? As I said earlier, quite a lot of discomfort whenever they are mentioned. Shall we not talk about the Israeli military too? Could end up being a short thread after all.

Of course we must talk about Hamas. But they are not deliberately targeting UN safe havens where people thought their children would be safe. They are not deliberately killing children.

no me too justasecond. But this thread especially.

Half drunk - Hamas haven't had much support on these threads. However a point I made earlier is that Israel must have increased sympathy and support for Hamas with their brutality. And I was right. BBC news at 10 spoke to the family of the 4 boys murdered on the beach saying that they were enemies of hamas but now fully supported them.

Hamas are massively flawed but let's face it they have become the bogeyman of this genocide. Israel was killing women and children long before hamas came on the scene.

Sergeant - after this last month it is Israel I would label as the fundamentalist death cult. They are far more effective and barbaric at exterminating an entire race than Hamas could ever dream of being.

Any optimism from that time has been slowly but surely suffocated by the brutal blockade. Why does Israel not want peace? Have they got on the plane to join in the talks yet?

I was talking to my mum this evening about the boycott campaign. She remembers when the boycotts on South Africa started and everyone thought the protesters were "a little bit mad, what was the big deal?". Eventually, people started to take notice and it spread.

And it worked.

Bring it on. Boycott Israel.

I've ordered a Palestinian flag and am going to hang it from the house to remind people, when it fades from the news. I love the idea of doing the ribbons to remember the children too.

I feel extreme distaste when people turn this into a body count competition. Do you really wish the civilian death toll was as high on the Israeli side?

Hakluyt - "Israel is targeting UN safe havens, where people have been told their children will be safe. There are no circumstances in which that is acceptable." How about this circumstance - when there are rockets hidden by Hamas under UN buildings and Hamas tell their citizens that they would be safe there. I feel your outrage is misdirected.

Nobody here has said that they support Hamas.

Having grievances with the Israeli army doesn't equal support to Hamas.

Like having grievances with the state of Israel doesn't mean you have grievances with Jews.

It's not you believe x so you must believe y. It's far more complex than that.

The only thing that seems to be a certainty is that Israel has used disproportionate force against the citizens of Gaza resulting in lots of blood shed, loss of life and infrastructure.

"I feel extreme distaste when people turn this into a body count competition. Do you really wish the civilian death toll was as high on the Israeli side? "

Yes, I'm sure you do. Doesn't look good for your side, does it?

I think it is important to.disvuss hamas too as sergeant suggested.

All the recent reports on C4 al jazeera and sky news seem to suggest that their original charter is not something they abide by and in recent years they have changed their approach to accept that Israel exists and deserves to exist.

Wasn't the fact that they were unifying with the other palestinian factions one of the reasons israel caused chaos in the region? Someone linked in the first thread to a clip from.the founder of hamas stating they have no issue with jews but with occupiers.

If has are wanting to change and merge with the more accepted factions of palestinian law makers then that should be embraced if Israel want peace and security for its people. The article about rabbi Lerner is brilliant. He is right when he says israel needs to embrace the principles of Judaism and extend the proverbial olive branch (even if it did always belong to the palestinians)

Hear hear to Israel acting like a fundamentist death club. Reading The Times of Israel is like a glimpse into a deeply psychotic and disturbed mind. The comments are mind-boggling, and the blog "articles" are nothing short of paranoid, racist, inflammatory incitement to hatred.

Deeply, deeply disturbing.

Israeli forces shoot at the place from where rockets are launched

And at civilians fleeing their homes. Here.

And civilians searching for family in the rubble during a ceasefire. Here

And ambulance drivers like Yousef Drabiah

And UN shelters, schools, children playing on beaches, hospitals and so on - places the UN has not only confirmed no weapons/rockets were, but has given the IDF the co-ordinates, confirming unarmed civilians and children are taking cover there.

In fact, they've pretty much just flattened Gaza, and any civilians in the way, haven't they?

The barbarism of it.

sergeantmajor
With due respect, we've already discussed the issue of proportionality, at length.

We want FEWER deaths.

That's the paranoia again. everyone wants Israel dead. We have to DEFEND ourselves. Defense! Terror! Hamas! Terror!

I'm starting to think Israel is suffering a collective psychosis.