Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

QnBoudi - "Why does Israel not want peace? Have they got on the plane to join in the talks yet?" ... hello? Hamas bombed their way through the past three ceasefires. The Palestinians turned down the Oslo Accords where a peaceful two-state solution was proposed and supported by Israel. I sincerely hope that the West Bank leadership will continue this thread of hope. Hamas want a one-state solution. Which requires the liquidation of their neighbours. Awkward! As Amos Oz said "even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'"

Sergeant please understand this even if you understand nothing else about the sanctity of human life: there are NO circumstances in which a UN school safe house full of innocent children should be fired on. No circumstance. That is what the world, human rights organisations, the UN, the US has been screaming at israel for decades.

Not even if Hamas are there or have rockets there. No circumstance. Do you understand this?

For the record unwra had confirmed there were no hamas fighters or rockets at the schools. Just civilians. Who we all say dead after the cowardly attack by Israel.

For you to justify or try to find a circumstance where it is acceptable for Israel to fire a school is deplorable.

I would it very hard to find any common ground with someone who believes that there is any justification for killing children, in their sleep, in a refugee centre.

I have to ask myself if you are really human.

"Hakluyt - "Israel is targeting UN safe havens, where people have been told their children will be safe. There are no circumstances in which that is acceptable." How about this circumstance - when there are rockets hidden by Hamas under UN buildings and Hamas tell their citizens that they would be safe there. I feel your outrage is misdirected."

Sergeant-I would like to be clear here. Are you saying that under those circumstances, bombing a school full of children would be acceptable?

Even if they are firing from residential areas the IDF are still choosing to shell places where they know for sure they will cause mass civilian death. How is this moral? Under no circumstance is this ok.

Btw are there many open air uninhabited spaces in Gaza that Hamas could do their rocket firing from? You know there is no formal army or army base. Another reason this human shield thing is a red herring. Wherever they fire from will be a civilian area.

This is the response I got back from my email to David Cameron:

"The Prime Minister has asked me to thank you for your email and for sharing your concerns about the situation in Gaza.

Please be assured your email has been read and noted. However, given the large volumes of emails we are receiving, we are not able to send individual replies.

You may wish to visit www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-ministers-statement-on-ukraine-and-gaza
For the Prime Minister’s latest statement.

You may also wish to visit www.gov.uk/government/news/foreign-secretary-joins-other-ministers-in-call-for-extended-ceasefire-in-gaza
for the Foreign Secretary’s latest statement.

Thank you again for contacting the Prime Minister’s Office."

Generic and disappointing (as expected) however if thousands of others are doing the same, it all counts in showing the sentiment and public outrage building at the Israeli lies and western apathy to condemn these actions. I'm going to send another email to No.10 tomorrow in response to the above. Emailed my MP also. Feels right to be doing something, however small that something may be.

I wrote to my MP, Teresa May twice, the latest over 2 weeks ago. No reply at all.

Sergeantmajor The Oslo Accords were agreed by both sides and undermined by both sides! Israel expanded the settlements and continued blockades, it seems to me that compromise in Israel's eyes is Israel does what ever the hell it wants and the Palestinians should just put up and shut up.

Hilde Henriksen Waage also considered the Oslo Accords to have been solely to the benefit of Israel and that the Palestinians just had to accept it. But Israel still had to grab more land and flout what concessions they had supposedly given.

The injustice is horrific and all of Israel should be ashamed.

Sergeant-I would like to be clear here. Are you saying that under those circumstances, bombing a school full of children would be acceptable?

Are you saying that, sergeant?

Can anyone help me understand this from a legal perspective? Israel has long been 'targeting' Hamas fighters i.e. assassinating them. Why haven't they acted within a legal framework to arrest/extradite/try and prosecute them? Why is it OK to move straight to extermination before proving beyond reasonable doubt?

dingalong Absolutely, it's terrifying. They have become extremely radicalised.

The whole charade is so neatly wrapped up in doublethink, that you have posters like sergeant believing, and expecting us to agree, that there are circumstances when it's ok to kill babies.

This article from 2006 is a must read to understand better the political and economic backdrop that led to the election of Hamas.

electronicintifada.net/content/hamas-election-victory-vote-clarity/5847

Qnboudi israel currently has hundreds of palestinian civilians and children as well as what it considers hamas fighter in it'd prisons. Indefinitely. No trial. No charge. It really does operate outside of international law.

Israel4icc.

Mm. Just thought I might be missing something. Still, having been allowed to get away with illegal acts for ages, it no doubt seems very unfair that we're all suddenly up in arms now. Back to the 'but you didn't get upset about Syria' etc. And no doubt the next line of defence will be that it's actually OUR fault for letting them.

The Guardian has an article about Palestine joining the ICC. It means that Hamas have to sign and submit themselves to be investigated also by the ICC. Israel thinks the membership will backfire on Palestinians.

I just want to see justice for the Palestinians. The West has kept Palestine from going to ICC for a while now as according to US and EU, it would undermine the 'peace' process. Organisations such as Human Rights Watch and Amnesty have long been telling The Palestinians to ignore the West and seek justice. Our Western leaders have truly shown a lot of hypocrisy when it comes to Palestinians in years gone by and continue to do so even today.

I just hope Palestinians are not denied justice at ICC

Some bits c&p'd from the article:

"They [Hamas and PIJ] believe the size of the crime that the Israelis committed is huge. They feel like they didn't commit crimes, but they say: 'Even if some of our leaders go to court, we will do that. It is part of our responsibility to the victims.' So it is a matter of time, but we are very, very close."

The Israeli foreign ministry declined to comment.

The outrage over the tricycle theatre decision shows that the BDS route is bloody tough... I was initially, but their statement shows they made every effort to still host the festival (other than accepting the Israeli govt as a sponsor, that is)
I was to note that some tweeting their outrage had not, for example, tweeted any other outrage, eg about children being killed at play...

I really hope Palestine goes to the ICC.

I wonder how big Saturday's demonstration will be? I wonder how we can keep the occupation at the forefront of people's minds?

Warsi mentioned something in her interview about the absolute hypocrisy of UK and US vetoing palestine joining the ICC. I hope they do join.

I've been thinking about people defending israel and I can't get my head around it. It's like someone defending the kidnap of the 200 Nigerian girls, or the shooting down of MH17, or slavery or the Holocaust. Some things you just cannot justify. How can anyone justify occupation and the caging of an entire nation?

It's indefensible but there are mumsnet terms who approve of israels actions. I just cannot understand this at all.

FrontierPsychiatrist - you asked about the average age of israeli military.

they are young, very young. in fact you HAVE to do national sevice or you are sent to prison.

when i visited palestine and israel i was o shocked by how young the soldiers were. they are just kids. we drove through one checkpoint and the soldier was asleep, clutching his machine gun. he looked like a sleeping child. he was.

at this age you should not be in possession of a firearm. and they are trained to shoot to kill.

as i left tel aviv airport i was held for FIVE HOURS by the israeli miliatry, and strip searched by girls who i swear looked 15. they certainly acted it.

it was absolutely terrifying and so undignified.

but 0.000000000001% of the daily indignitities that the palestinians are subjected to.

stopwar.org.uk/events/august-9-national-demonstration-for-gaza-no-excuses-be-there#.U-HKcn-9KSP

Saturdays protest in London, everyone hoping to make it the biggest one yet.

I think the reason many people on here have absolute Hamas-fatigue is that Hamas has cynically been used as the bogeyman by the likes of Mark Regev to justify any and all IDF atrocities and I think many people on here and elsewhere in the world have just had enough.

We were told that this was all about Israel's "defence" against "Hamas" when the truth is, it has simply been an attack on the Palestinian people.

That it has all been aimed squarely at the Palestinian people is proven by the IDF taking out the water supply, the power, and of course the endless random attacks of the boys on the beach, the children waiting for turns on the swings, the patients in the hospital, the children in schools, the civilians in UN shelters.

Now my interest is only in the treatment of the Palestinian people and the discrimination and oppression they face, not just in Gaza but elsewhere in Israel too.

I personally am just not interested in hearing about Hamas anymore because mention of the group has been used so cynically in the past.

When the oppression and discrimination stops, and when there is some sense of normality in terms of how Palestinian human beings are treated, then I will be interested in which political parties emerge but not now. Now the onus is on the Israeli state to stop its attacks, oppression and discrimination.

So I'm not interested in talking about Hamas but obviously other posters might be and that is their prerogative for sure.

OK. Change from talking about Hamas. This is a rather depressing article that suggests that the main opposition in Israel is not that different from Netanyahu.