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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
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8
YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 05/08/2014 20:52

These threads seem to be sugesting that there is a good side (Hamas) and a bad side (Israel). Your evidence for this is unsubstantiated.

Equally, many more people in Gaza whould be alive if Hamas were not dropping bombs on them.

Hamas don't care about killing people in Gaza. They have bombed people in Gaza themselves, it was their bomb that hit the hospital and killed all those children, it is very well known. They have bombed more UN safety zones than Israel. They have killed more Gazan people than Israel. They also put their weapons in and under schools and mosques and hospitals.

Israel have sent texts, radio messages and dropped leaflets to say to evacuate a particular school etc and Hamas have blocked the messages and destroyed the leaflets and told people to go. They have brain washed people in Gaza to be killed.

Yes is is horrific that so many innocent civilans have been killed, but it is sickening that so many of you don't bother to consider that if Hamas had let people know those places were going to be bombed, and those children had stayed at home, they would still be alive. Plus, many of them were hit directly by Hamas bombs.

All war is horrific and neither side can claim to be wholly good or that their enemy is wholly bad, in any war, and this is not an exception. Also, the truth about who did what and when is not completely clear at the time, Many of you are making half of what you say up and jumping to so many conclusions about things you can't possibly know about.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 05/08/2014 20:52

These threads seem to be sugesting that there is a good side (Hamas) and a bad side (Israel). Your evidence for this is unsubstantiated.

Equally, many more people in Gaza whould be alive if Hamas were not dropping bombs on them.

Hamas don't care about killing people in Gaza. They have bombed people in Gaza themselves, it was their bomb that hit the hospital and killed all those children, it is very well known. They have bombed more UN safety zones than Israel. They have killed more Gazan people than Israel. They also put their weapons in and under schools and mosques and hospitals.

Israel have sent texts, radio messages and dropped leaflets to say to evacuate a particular school etc and Hamas have blocked the messages and destroyed the leaflets and told people to go. They have brain washed people in Gaza to be killed.

Yes is is horrific that so many innocent civilans have been killed, but it is sickening that so many of you don't bother to consider that if Hamas had let people know those places were going to be bombed, and those children had stayed at home, they would still be alive. Plus, many of them were hit directly by Hamas bombs.

All war is horrific and neither side can claim to be wholly good or that their enemy is wholly bad, in any war, and this is not an exception. Also, the truth about who did what and when is not completely clear at the time, Many of you are making half of what you say up and jumping to so many conclusions about things you can't possibly know about.

Springheeled · 05/08/2014 20:53

Today has been so heartening, starting with Warsi and then the fab elbit occupation and great response of the fbu.
And the staff in Superdrug!
And the twitter storm on Cameron this eve
And so many positive stories of pressure and resistance.
This thread is so heartening, I love it!

FrontierPsychiatrist · 05/08/2014 20:53

More awareness and more boycotting:

BT is high-end luxury department store chain in Ireland.

Theatre refuses to collaborate with Israel funded film festival

The Israeli embassy in Dublin has made a right fool of itself tweeting some really bigoted images @israelinireland

TheHoneyBadger MSF need ancillary and support staff, not just medics. Maybe you fit their profile. Have a look.

Thanks to everyone for sharing. I loose the rag with Israeli apologists. They just sound like broken records.

Donations can be made to the UNRWA.

goldvelvet · 05/08/2014 21:00

YeGods if that is what you believe I suggest you open your eyes to more media sources than the ones you are currently viewing.

OneStepCloser · 05/08/2014 21:00

www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1463120330604830&set=gm.741924832530430&type=1

Does this work Back? Its on the Palestine Will be Free FB

OneStepCloser · 05/08/2014 21:02

babbas must be very hard for you Thanks

YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 05/08/2014 21:08

How do you know which media sources I am currently viewing? How do you know that the media sources you are viewing are the ones to be trusted, when they are saying things and implying things that cannot be known to be true?

I look at as wide a coverage as possible and don't jump to conclusions.

goldvelvet · 05/08/2014 21:23

Continue to read this thread and take in a wide coverage of media sources we post lots of helpful links.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 05/08/2014 21:28

These threads seem to be sugesting that there is a good side (Hamas) and a bad side (Israel).

My part in this thread is to highlight there is a highly militarised army, with huge weaponry with US/UK support and there is the large number of unarmed civilians (as defined by the UN) including over 400 children who have been killed by them.

This is not "self defence" in my book. It shouldn't be in anyone's book, actually - only a tyrant would argue that it is.

Backinthering · 05/08/2014 21:31

Onestep it's saying content currently unavailable.

goldvelvet · 05/08/2014 21:32

Is mumsnet crashing for anyone else when they refresh?

Backinthering · 05/08/2014 21:33

YeGods where are you getting this stuff?? What you're saying about Hamas having bombed a hospital and other safe zones is out and out nonsense.
If you can provide any linked evidence that isn't from some far-right zionist news source, I'd be fascinated to see it.

halfdrunkcoffee · 05/08/2014 21:34

I find it frustrating that on this thread it's hard to find fault with Hamas without being derided as a genocide apologist. Personally I don't support what Israel is doing, but does that mean there must be no criticism of Hamas?

This is the view of the Economist correspondent on their Q&A today:

The civilian toll of nearly 2000 dead, 10,000 injured and some half a million people displaced in a population of 1.8m in Gaza makes many, perhaps most people there ask whether the war was worth the price. Almost everyone in Gaza is either homeless or is sheltering people who are. Most have lost access to all but occasional running water and electricity. Some 250,000 have sought shelter in schools, where many sleep on the floor, often without mattresses, 70 to a classroom. Israel bombed Gaza’s Hamas-linked insurance company, so many will lack the means to rebuild the more than 5,000 homes that have been destroyed.

At times of intense bombardment, criticism of Hamas by Gazans seemed to rise. As in Israel, many fear that speaking out will be considered treachery, but one young man I spoke to in Gaza City said he would protest with his friends in the streets if the militant factions continued the war.

In the longer term, if the war does result in the lifting of Gaza’s eight-year blockade and the enclave is reconnected to the outside world, many in Gaza will consider the toll in human suffering worth the reward. But with the positions of the Israeli and Palestinian negotiating parties still far apart there is no guarantee that the political process under way in Cairo will deliver the gains that Hamas has promised. If the blockade in some shape or form continues, criticism of Hamas will mount, for pursuing a war in which the population, not Hamas itself, will have paid the highest price.

halfdrunkcoffee · 05/08/2014 21:35

WRT the boycotts. Does anyone else see an advert for Beaming Baby wipes when viewing MN on a laptop? They are made in Israel.

FrontierPsychiatrist · 05/08/2014 21:50

Huggies are made in Israel too apparently.

With all due respect, YeGods, you're clearly not looking at a very wide coverage. Extremely narrow, would be more accurate. There are four previous threads that you might want to look at.

Sounds like more hasbarah to me.

goldvelvet · 05/08/2014 21:57

Halfdrunkcoffee download ad blocker! Blocks ads on Facebook too. On youtube and those damn annoying cookies that makes ads follow you taunting you with something you looked at the day before!

I did it about a month ago and it's so refreshing.

Backinthering · 05/08/2014 22:08

Halfdrunkcoffee I actually view Hamas as a bit of a red herring. The Israelis have tried to frame the current conflict as then vs Hamas but the massacres, land grabs and oppression are the same now as they have been for decades.
Plus, Israel used to back Hamas in an attempt to destabilise the PLO.
The Israelis arw refusing to own their own atrocities.

edamsavestheday · 05/08/2014 22:08

halfdrunk - that's because in the current crises, it is Israel that is the aggressor. And because the people who talk about Hamas are often doing so only in order to justify the slaughter of Palestinians. If anyone wants to say something interesting about Hamas rather than using their existence as a stick to beat civilians with, I'd listen.

Springheeled · 05/08/2014 22:10

Great tip goldvelvet thanks

Bbc news changing its tunes little or my imagination?

The Elbit factory occupation is IMO exactly the kind of action needed- brave people doing this.

OneStepCloser · 05/08/2014 22:15

Oh that's strange Back although I'm wondering if a boycott Facebook on Facebook might have been taken down! Guess they wouldn't want to promote it.

OneStepCloser · 05/08/2014 22:16

halfdrunk when I was looking at the boycott sight an ad for Yours M&S kept popping up which I thought was odd.

dingalong · 05/08/2014 22:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sergeantmajor · 05/08/2014 22:25

This TV report from an Indian news station shows the setting up and firing of a missile from Gaza. It is in a densely populated area. This is a very clear and self evident video.
www.businessinsider.com/hamas-rocket-team-caught-on-video-2014-8

This Finnish journalist reports on how Hamas fired rockets from Shifa hospital.

Anyone still think that Hamas are serving the best interests of the people of Gaza?

Backinthering · 05/08/2014 22:32

sergaentmajor I wasn't disputing that Hamas fires rockets from Gaza. Clearly they do.
I was pointing out that it was Israel not them who bombed hospitals and refugee centers, killing civilians.