Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Backing herring, if that post was aimed at me, you should know that my link is not to an Israeli apologist but a Syrian activist who holds no candle whatsoever for Israel and is not in the business of "churning out self-justifying propaganda". In their words: "Clearly Stop the War Coalition’s solidarity with the Palestinian people begins with Gaza Strip and ends on the Golan Heights. In this they are not the exception but the rule. A large segment, perhaps a majority, of self-styled ‘pro-Palestinian’ activists in the West are afflicted by this same selective internationalism, of state-centered borders-based pseudosolidarity, of opposing the collective punishment and mass murder of Palestinians and Arabs in one land by one government and supporting or justifying collective their punishment and mass murder next door when a different government is the perpetrator.

The most nauseating example of this hypocrisy was the recycling of images of Bashar al-Assad’s victims as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s victims, as if there were a shortage atrocity photos emanating from Gaza. [the article has examples]"

Of course, Muslim aggression killing Muslim due to the mortal crime of which branch of Islam they follow, bears no responsibility at all, isn't that how it works on a few thousand posts on here.

Maybe when Arab's and their power hungry despotic leaders stop killing and displacing their own women and children, the rest of us can better understand what the fuck is going on.

Or use a few thousand posts to blame the Israeli's for Syria, Iraq, the Lebanon etc etc etc, that shows so much hypocrisy, you PUT OFF people to your cause. IMHO.

Backinginthering, not "backing herring"! Thank you autocorrect for a rare moment of humour on this thread

backinthering yep, I'm getting to that point also.

I can't believe that on twitter this morning all the news feeds are saying ceasefire holds despite rocket attacks when a) Hamas had not accepted responsibility for rocket fire and b) more importantly- Israel broke the ceasefire by firing on fisherman, striking last night and filling the skies with drones. This biased bullshit is driving me insane.

I can't bear the lack of leadership: I'd forgotten about Sarkozy yruapita but isn't Obama's response pathetic?! It's a basic agreement with a kind of rueful edge but actually, Obama- there is an alternative! You DON'T have to deal with the fucker! You don't have to be mixed up in arms sales, nuclear talks, high tech spookery... You could cut him loose!!!

What this situation is doing for me is laying everything very bare- it's taking me back to the way I used to look at the world which I'd decided I couldn't do anymore because we all have to just get on and live in it! But Gaza makes me realise we all have to stand up and be counted , for the sake of humanity.

I've also changed my mind on BDS- originally I felt a bit sorry for Joan Rivers and the IJFF but now I think well, actually, no. If the IJFF wa so attached to it's couple of thousand from Israel that they wouldn't even take the alternative funding offered then goodbye ! If Joan Rivers wants to come here and make people laugh when she thinks dead Palestinians are funny, no, fuck off ! I still think that BDS is really tricky but it's the only means at our disposal apart from endless petitioning and marching- or handwringing and charitable donations. So BDS all the way!

Its, not it's in above post. (Also, since the Israeli govt's supporters are so keen on telling us that we owe our iPhones to them- well why can't they make one that doesn't automatically make its have an apostrophe????)

homehelpmegawd the Syria, Libya etc argument is crap for all the millions of reasons that have been given on this thread over all five threads of it.

Yruapita

At last we agree on something! Hamas = ISIS is a bit strong. They're closer to al-Qaida. See below their tribute to Arab holy warrior Osama:

www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/02/hamas-osama-bin-laden.

As for BDS, I see the UK is buying a £1bn drone system off the Israelis. That makes up for a lot of oranges!

Springheeled, there isn't one single "Syria, Libya etc argument". And it would be nice if we listened to what Syrians are saying (including Palestinians in Syria). That was the point of the article I linked to.

Ah, there I was thinking that the point was to distract from the discussion. I'll go back and re read.

We discussed the syria/iraq/Sudan diversions in the last thread.

I'm so angry at Netanyahu. He's damaging for Israel and jews worldwide.

It's really hard to have any sympathy or affiliation for Israel when it's committing an ongoing genocide.

Abbs Martin, host of breaking the set, was spot on when she tweeted that only israel would get away with murdering a nation and then blaming the victims for their own death. It's not the fault of israel or the bombs or snipers. Oh no. It's the fault if those pesky palestinians sat cowering in UN safe houses. And let's not forget those idiot fishermen trying to fish in their own waters for fish (in sewage Infested waters) to feed their starving (remaining) children. How dare their little crude fishing boats dare move a centimetre outside their designated line. This sounds ridiculous right? But is the tgought process of israel. Barbaric.

I'm so angry today.

somewhere safe - they're not really diversions - they are part of the bigger picture - if Israel's neighbours were Denmark, Finland and Sweden, I think there would have been peace many years ago, but it's quite an evil part of the world, where the choice is often between dealing with the lesser of two evils.

For example, suppose Israel decided to give back the Golan Heights tomorrow, as required by UN resolutions. Whom would they give it back to, and what would the consequences be for the Druze, who are quite similar to the Yazidi in terms of being considered Muslim heretics?

It doesn't matter what Hamas does or says. No civilised country deliberately bombs UN safe havens full of children. That is the bottom line here. Anything else is smoke and mirrors.

I have followed this thread from the beginning and I must say it lifts my heart to see so many people outraged by the atrocities being commited. So many of my family, framily and colleagues spend their lives in a bubble. In fact one of my close friends admits she "loves it in her little bubble, as mine doesn't seem to make me very happy". Why have I decided to jump in now? I posted a 2 links last night because so many people on here could not believe the pro-isreal bias in the media, or the lack of action by not only our government but most others. The first link might help explain why this is. Also 'Boycott isreal', seeing the lists of isreali owned companies that snake through our everyday lives. Does it not seem extraordinary, that such a small state, only around for a nanosecond is spread so far and wide. Perhaps the 2nd link I posted would help answer this.
There are a lot more atrocities commited by the zionists on the video. Yes 4 hours is a long time, think of it as a book club to discuss later. We are all Palestine. Oh! please don't stop the pro-isrealies using bold letters, it's easier to spot them so I can ignore them and skip past.

Nice video, Middleagedwino. Synagogues of Satan? Huh. Fascinating stuff. Loved the comments sections too. You've changed my life. No, really, lol.

BTW, It's Israel not Isreal. Just a little tip for you. ;)

JohnFarleysRuskin. Yes. it's definitely thought provoking. As for the spelling error. I know it's childish but I refuse to give it either a capital letter or spell it correctly, 'is real' makes me think of a child arguing with another, "... is real... Oh no it isn't...Oh yes it is" . It is Palestine, and if someone came and stole my home, my land and my country how would I feel? I would be pissed to put it lightly. Watching the video does make you feel a little hopeless about what can be done to help though. The world is in trouble and the God the zionists pray to seems to be a little stronger than mine at the moment. Perhaps there are more of them than us...... what a depressing thought.

Still as true today as it was then :(

Yes, I heard the chief rabbi too, what a lickspittle excuser of child killings (and other civilians). Refusing to condemn Joan Rivers' hate filled racist rant is disgusting - and he was asked several times. And he has the cheek to moan about graffiti saying 'Free Gaza' on the side of a synagogue!

(Not that I'm advocating graffiti on synagogues, but compared to Joan Rivers attacking the victims of Israel's bombing for their own deaths 'because they were stupid', really? That's what you focus on?)

Middleagedwino - who was your comment referring to " Perhaps there are more of them than us...... what a depressing thought"

Do we all think George Galloway is disgusting too for his inappropriate rants?

gotten fantastically sidelined by accusations of anti-semitism again it seems.

yet who has been dying on mass? which children, women, disabled people and other civilians have been being bombed and killed in the last month or so (as opposed to 70 years ago)?

my mother was an abusive sociopath - should i abuse my son and when called on it use my childhood as a defense? no. clearly not. we live in today, we are judged on what we do today, we ARE what we do today. we make choices - do we protect life and act in love and compassion or do we destroy life and act in vengence and hate? those are the decisions we make today and today is where we announce who we are and what we are.

i choose to be a good mother to my son, or at least the best i can be, despite my history and in fact BECAUSE of my history because i know what it is to be abused. if there is a divine testing and judgment it will be on things like this - whether we choose to replicate or choose a different path, whether in the face of being hurt we choose to hurt more or to love. sorry if this is simplistic sounding but at core life IS. either you're ok with murdering innocents or you're not. be those innocents whatever religion or accident of birth nationality or ethnic group or whatever.

i am against the slaughter of civilians - whether israel, or britain or germany or even god is behind that slaughter.

you have principles and you stick by them. if your principles only extend to 'your' people or one group then they're not principals really they're just tribalism.

In Iraq Muslim radicals are slaughtering Christians for not being of the same faith. However you dress it up and make apologies for them, terrorist groups like Isis and Hamas will continue to kill blindly to anyone who does not worship Allah. And quite a lot of the time they kill those too, probably by accident though.

and in it's simplest terms:

if YOUR immediate, close, you have control over, tribe doesn't have a military force, doesn't have nuclear weapons or the ability to take hundreds of thousands of lives at the press of a button or order of a fleet of drones and/or bombers then you are best of siding with civilians and their right to live because you are a civilian and if you support the slaughter of civilians then GUESS what? you might be next.

this stuff IS simple. it's as simple as, 'do you want to make it ok for militaries to murder and slaughter civilians in the name of their agendas or not?'. if you're a civilian the answer should be bloody simple frankly.

do you want to live in a world where it's ok to be murdered in your beds through an accident of birth and geography or not? personally i'd like to live in a world where powerful greedy pscyhos dealt with their issues without murdering my son or me or bombing my local hospital.

it IS that simple.

sure there are things to be sorted and complicated issues BUT either you want world powers to respect the lives of innocent normal people or you don't. that's the prime decision here and it's a decision that has massive implications for all of us.

londongirl - so join me and be generically, accross the board AGAINST the murder of civilians for political causes. no? just want to be against hte murder of non muslims? then you're missing the point.

and perpetuating the hate, fear and prejudice that would keep us spiralling and spiraling into destruction. but hey at least you have a 'team' and get to feel superior.

Gosh. Well, Middleaged I don't know if your views will be entirely welcome on this thread tbh.

People do try not to conflate anti-semitism with criticism of Israel, (although clearly for some it is difficult not to!) The video you posted with its account of the evilness of the Jews who are trying to take over the world, I imagine, would be considered by a few people as blatantly anti-Semitic. It may even be reported. - not by me, I like people to be 'informed'.

Barbarian, Yes, people are very reluctant to condemn racist hatred even when they're right next to it. I guess its not convenient to them.

gotten fantastically sidelined by accusations of anti-semitism again it seems.

I'm not sure I get you Honeybadger. Are you happy to have anti-semitic videos on this thread? Or is it just 'accusations against them' that get you annoyed?