Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

Springheeled what twitter accounts are you looking at? I don't really use it but it does seem like a good source of information sometimes.

Back on topic, I'm pleased the ceasefire is extended. This must mean that the negotiations are underway. If Israel has any decency and humanity it will lift the siege.

I have to say that I think the palestinians are being remarkably tolerant sitting at a table with an occupying regime begging for the return of the human rights and the end to an illegal siege and occupation.

Seeing photos of children playing in and around missiles and people praying in ruins shows the resilience of the palestinians. How the children continue to smile and the parents sift through the absolute rubble to sift for anything that has survived is inspiring.

alaswad I just search 'Gaza' and there are about 20 tweets a second- from all angles- whereas Gazaunderattack is obviously more one sided.

But I also follow a doctor, the ch4 news teams, the Al Jazeera journalist team and the young girl who has been popping up on the news. Also the MAP doctors who have gone in. Rachel Corrie foundation, medialens, IDF spokesperson, BBC breaking.. I'll try and find addresses/links.

I follow Jeremy Hardy- it's worth looking on YouTube at clips of Jeremy Hardy v the Israeli army: there's a hair raising one where the group are waving a white flag and get fired at by a tank.

I agree somewheresafe that to sit and negotiate with occupiers must take some patience and tenacity. I know someone will pop up and say that to sit with terrorists is worse etc but I think to have to sit and fight for shitty little concessions such as a port or more permits out or whatever, it just beggars belief. To have to negotiate for your movement, freedom, lives, bread, peace!!!!

I'm also intrigued by the way the world lines up. For example, the efforts being made for the Palestinians by Venezuala.

I'm glad the ceasefire has been extended too. Let's hope the negotiators are working for a lasting peace and reconstruction.

The Evening Standard tonight had a picture of someone they said was an Israeli army reservist. Wearing a T-shirt that said:

DEPLOYED
DESTROYED
ENJOYED
GAZA 2014

What the fucking hell?

Meanwhile a Palestinian poet, Khaled Juma, wrote:

'Oh, rascal children of Gaza
You who constantly disturbed me with your screams under my window
You who filled every morning with rush and chaos
You who broke my vase and stole the lonely flower on my balcony
Come back, and scream as you want and break all the vases
Steal all the flowers
Come back... just come back.

Heartbreaking.

alAswad. Four hours about how the Jews are secretly controlling the world?! Think I'll give it a miss, ta.
Lol. Zionists not Jews. But don't worry I do realise that 4 hours of concentration is too much for some. The film does however cover 70 years, so 4 hours is pretty good going.

Gold velvet, Jews were condemned as baby killers in the Middle Ages. It was widely believed they would kill and drink the blood of non Jewish babies/children.

There is a conspiracy theory that Jews control world economics. In fact that their economic clout means they rule the world.

Jews were also condemned as Christ killers.

Jews have suffered hideously in the past. This does not excuse the current behaviour of the state of Israel.

That is not the point being made, Hakluyt.

For some, anti Semitism is engrained.

For Jews, a sense of persecution prevails.

And I believe that Israel has been heavy handed over the years. But I also believe Hamas and other Arab states do want Jews to be gone. And by gone I mean wiped out.

edam it even shocked the Daily Mail! Who raises these men? I mean, the world over there are young men who seem to express this kind of attitude. It's like the soldiers who defecated and left hate graffiti. What is wrong with them?

If that is not the point being made why is anti semitism even being discussed on this thread?

Spring - yes I wonder how frustrating it must be to be arguing and begging an occupier to grant your fisherman an extra 5 miles to fish in their sea, to be allowed to take cancer patients out for treatment, to allow building materials and medicines in, to have a UN supervised port so trade can resume, so youngsters can access education abroad, so people can have freedom.

But somewhere that is what is so hideous the world over- a friend used to translate in Nicaragua in the 80s and said why is it that you ask for peace, land, bread, education, dignity and you come up against barriers and arms...

What is worrying is that the talks may end in some minor allowances and no more- continued indignity and oppression, but uneasy truce... I don't want the conflict to continue AT ALL but paltry concessions, it's not enough... What can any of us do to keep the pressure on?

I'm confused. Reports on twitter and fb from Gazans that Israel is firing and has broken the ceasefire. Hamas stayed they've not fired any rockets. I hope this is not true.

Tweets reporting multiple airstrikes around the strip. Think I'm gonna go cry myself to sleep. Hope Cameron et al are kept up all night deciding what reasons to give for not taking any action.

It's one of the reasons I have a deep love for the Middle East as a whole, somewhere. A lot of what happens there looks so terrible from the outside, and indeed a lot of it is, but behind the headlines are people like you and me living normal lives, finding creative ways around oppressive laws, telling dark jokes to cope with war and other suffering, finding happiness in mundane things... it gives me so much faith in the human spirit, even among the atrocities. It's so easy in the West for uninformed people to see those who live in the region as a homogeneous group who are either evil and inhuman or meek and downtrodden, but they're just so wrong.

At the risk of going completely off-topic, when I was living in Israel (a few years ago now, in a time of relative peace) I learnt enough bad Hebrew to write the following in a letter to a friend of mine. Unfortunately it seems less true now, but I hope that soon I might be able to say it again:

??????? ????? ???????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????. ????, ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? - ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????.?.?.? :?)?

My Arabic isn't good enough to even attempt something similar, but I imagine that if I visited most of the so-called 'Arab World' I would feel even more so. I don't mean to compare the terrorist attacks in Israel to the horrific situations in Gaza and elsewhere, but I expect a lot of the kindness, generosity and humour that made such an impression on me there is probably reflected across the whole region. There are parts (sadly many at the moment) where the situation is so terrible that it seems hardly possible to imagine anything good ever being able to survive there, but still it does.

edam, that poem is incredibly moving - so simple but there's so much emotion behind it.

Hakluyt - I don't think anyone has suggested that anti-semitism excuses the behaviour of the Israeli government, but this part of history provides a part of the background of understanding Israel's attitude and perhaps Jewish sense of persecution...?

Many cross-posts! I meant your post about the resilience shown by children playing, of course. I really hope it isn't true bout the ceasefire being broken, I still haven't seen anything on any of the news sites...

It's quite difficult to look back in time without the benefit of knowing the outcome of events. If one of the criticisms of comparing Warsaw and gaza is that the scale of atrocities in the Warsaw ghetto is not on a par with those in Gaza, you could argue that we just need to add the adverb 'yet' to that comparison...

For whatever reason, ordinary Germans didn't speak out then. We must not be afraid to do so now. We must not be distracted. "Eyes on the prize" was, I believe, the call to action for Saturdays demo. We want to stop the killing, maiming and general misery of an unfairly imprisoned, under resourced and second class group of people.

It annoys the hell out of me that Britain has responded so quickly to what's going on in Iraq - not because I begrudge them the help at all, but because the same level of humanitarian response was not be afforded to those in the OPT.

edam that poem just brought tears to my eyes.

I just typed 'gaza' in the search engine for recent news and some horrific pictures of babies burnt with limbs missing turned up. Utterly horrific. How will those people forgive? How will those people forget? How will those people ever 'get over' their trauma?

Then the taunting and that abhorrent song about no school in Gaza, it just is beyond inhumane.

Netanyahu's most recent Hamas Hamas Hamas auto-repeat equates Hamas with ISIS.

This is what he said: (source: mondoweiss)

Representing the rejection of the false symmetry that is made. Just as you wouldn’t put America and ISIS on the same moral plane, you would never put Israel and Hamas on the same moral plane.

Remember that Hamas celebrated 9/11. They celebrated the murder of thousands of innocent people, including thousands of New Yorkers… They were standing on the roof and cheering while all of the people of Israel grieved… with the United States…

Hamas continues to do these horrible things that ISIS does. They persecute Christians, they persecute gays, they persecute women. They basically reject modernity. They are a terrorist tyranny that is imposed on their people. And when their people reject being used as human shields, you know what they do governor– they execute them!

…On one side you have Israel and the United States representing democracies committed to human rights, committed to our real future for our people. And on the other you have the likes of ISIS and Hamas, Islamist tyrannies that have no inhibition in pursuing their grisly creeds and their grisly deeds.

Notice how he tries to create an 'us' and 'them'. The lies are just atrocious.

Anybody remember this when sarkozy told obama a few years ago how he cant bear Netanyahu as he is a liar!

The world knows very well about Netanyahu and it is not in a positive light.

Really sad that a month on th barbarism is continuing.

"Hakluyt - I don't think anyone has suggested that anti-semitism excuses the behaviour of the Israeli government, but this part of history provides a part of the background of understanding Israel's attitude and perhaps Jewish sense of persecution...?"
Well obviously it does. But I do not see how such a
Discussion is relevant on a thread like this- it could only be used as a justification for the current behaviour of the Israeli government.

What has massively started to piss me off is this pro-Israeli stuff I keep seeing now going on about how the world only cares about Gaza because Israel is involved, how come they don't care about people suffering in Syria and Iraq?
I find it despicable that the suffering of those people is being used as pro Israel propaganda. And they can fuck right off with the poor-Israel-the-victim sadface shit.
I don't believe for a second the people posting this stuff give a shit about people being killed in Iraq. Just another excuse to churn out self-justifying propaganda.

Diversion tactic.

I heard the Chief Rabbi on the radio this morning very reluctant to condemn Joan Rivers' racist hatred.