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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
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dingalong · 13/08/2014 18:28

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alAswad · 13/08/2014 18:34

QnBoudi your link's not working?

And this discussion is relevant to the main topic imo (although it does seem to be straying somewhat now) as everyone being 'out to get the Jews' is a theme that's pushed by the Israeli government as a justification for their actions. So I think it's fair to debate the accuracy of that assertion and discuss why Jews might feel that way, as long as no-one's trying to shut down the conversation by accusing all and sundry of anti-Semitism, which they're not. If other people aren't interested in discussing that aspect of the issue they can still talk about other things alongside it.

alAswad · 13/08/2014 18:42

HomeHelpMe that article is really interesting and I absolutely agree with it, but I'm not sure this thread is the place for it - it's a thread about the Israel-Palestine conflict, not Syria, whichever you think is 'worse' or more important.

somewheresafe · 13/08/2014 18:54

John of course anti semitism exists in the UK. The fact that posters here have reported personal experiences is testament that it exists. But some posters have not experienced it personally.

I have never experienced it but of course I'm aware that it exists and may be on the increase because of the actions of israel.

dingalong · 13/08/2014 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QnBoudi · 13/08/2014 19:10

Well people can keep conflating the issues of Palestinian rights with antisemitism and what's going on in syria , Iraq etc. I'll just skim over those posts.

JohnFarleysRuskin · 13/08/2014 19:32

may be on the increase because of the actions of israel.

Maybe. And maybe people will spit at my Muslim neighbour because of the actions of syria, isis, etc.

Qnboudi, what a shame you didn't post to keep everyone in line yesterday when posters were relating their non-anti-semitic experiences.

goldvelvet · 13/08/2014 19:39

John do you think that some people may group Israeli's and Jews together because of the Israeli flag having the star of David on it? And they see the correlation and to them it's the same thing?

I'm wondering where this modern anti-semitism comes from and why people are struggling to disassociate Judaism from being an Israeli-Jew or a Zionist or even the actions of the IDF.

QnBoudi · 13/08/2014 19:42

AlAswad sorry bout the link, they seem to have had problems - trying again. http:i100.independent.co.UK/article/arab-israelis-are-losing-their-jobs-for-criticising-the-idf-on-facebook--xybfk7Xk7l

As far as I'm aware, the justification for israel's offensive was originally Hamas rockets. Then there was the kidnapping/tunnels. It seems to me that antisemitism is the latest post facto excuse/justification, which is why I don't want to get sucked into the minefield that I find unnecessary and unhelpful. The ultimate irony of course is that antisemitism is largely now 'on the rise' (amongst the ignorant/idiots) precisely because of the offensive.

QnBoudi · 13/08/2014 19:43

Struggling with the link - should be googleable - if it's still online.

AndHarry · 13/08/2014 19:49

Sorry if it's already been linked but the map of locations of deaths on this BBC page is puzzling me. The darker shaded area is the area that I thought the IDF had told everyone to leave for the safer light area, yet most of the deaths are in that 'safe' light area Confused

OP posts:
Springheeled · 13/08/2014 20:17

Looks as if it's all gone wrong again... Ceasefire at an end?
What can be done to lift the siege? Is there no leadership anywhere in the world?

alAswad · 13/08/2014 20:23

QnBoudi that one worked, thanks. I see what you mean, but I can understand people wanting to respond to things they disagree with that are brought up on the thread too. And unlike the other (suspiciously changeable) reasons given by the government I think the fear of persecution is a constant among many ordinary Israelis, and goes a long way towards explaining why they feel actions are justified or 'necessary' when they seem abhorrent to the rest of the world - in terms of lasting peace in the region I think it's important to understand where that sort of reasoning comes from, even if you (we) completely disagree with it. But anyway, I've said my bit about that already so I'll disappear back into lurkerdom Smile

sergeantmajor · 13/08/2014 21:33

goldvelvet "John do you think that some people may group Israeli's and Jews together because of the Israeli flag having the star of David on it? And they see the correlation and to them it's the same thing?
I'm wondering where this modern anti-semitism comes from and why people are struggling to disassociate Judaism from being an Israeli-Jew or a Zionist or even the actions of the IDF."

The thing is, Judaism is rarely a faith separate from its tribe. Apart from the very few converts to Judaism, nearly all Jews are part of the same extended family. (I would say 'ethnic group' but as Ethiopian Jews look so different to fair European Jews that gets confusing). Also, the land of Israel is held very dear to religious Jews and Jewish atheists worldwide.

So actually, it would be unrealistic to ask the world at large to disassociate Judaism with Israel, as Jews themselves see a close association.

However, holding Jews worldwide accountable for the actions of a government they didn't vote for is obviously way off target.

Most anti-Israel protesters are just that: anti the actions of the current Israeli government. Not anti-semitic. In fact, admirably standing up for victims with whom they have no personal familial link. But how swiftly it gets hijacked by the worst elements, exploited by extremists and the tone of the debate turns.

How do we explain the fact that some anti-Israel protest has slipped into ancient anti-semitic memes: boycotts, baby-killers, world conspiracy? Irony? Coincidence?

MajesticWhine · 13/08/2014 21:47

AndHarry I think perhaps the buffer zone was intended to protect Israeli soldiers from attack rather than to minimise Palestinian casualties.

goldvelvet · 13/08/2014 21:56

sergeant why do you think boycotting is anti-semitic?

alAswad · 13/08/2014 21:58

According to al-Jazeera the truce is being extended by another 72 hours.

Middleagedwino · 13/08/2014 22:02

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Middleagedwino · 13/08/2014 22:05

Unless of course you are a Zionist. Wink

alAswad · 13/08/2014 22:13

Four hours about how the Jews are secretly controlling the world?! Think I'll give it a miss, ta.

goldvelvet · 13/08/2014 22:13

How do we explain the fact that some anti-Israel protest has slipped into ancient anti-semitic memes: boycotts, baby-killers, world conspiracy? Irony? Coincidence?

^^I'm really confused in what tone this was meant. Can someone please spell it out to me? (genuinely not sure, i'm being sarcastic or anything else)

alAswad · 13/08/2014 22:16

My mistake, it's actually a five-day ceasefire, not three. Let's hope it lasts.

Springheeled · 13/08/2014 22:21

This is where twitter is a weird source of news- one minute rockets and drones reported, then simultaneous reports of ceasefire! Five days, five days more of tenuous peace- such a relief. I wonder what stage negotiations are at?

alAswad · 13/08/2014 22:23

Am I being too optimistic by hoping that the increased duration and frequency of ceasefires means an end might be in sight for the current round of fighting?