Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

creekyknees - and what does Iran say about STILL equipping and training Hamas terrorists - as they have done so, for several years?

Israel is surrounded by hostile States THAT HAS ATTACKED IT several times over the past century, sometimes three at a time - with Iran in the wings also sworn to wipe out Israel - WHICH party does it make sense to de-militarize, a Gaza who's people have suffered more since 2006/7 when Hamas came in, or Israel?

When Hamas fires 2,600 rockets/missiles in a few weeks, apparently they said with 50% left, _where are they all stored and then fired from?-

Hamas needs to demilitarize to help its own citizens, if nothing else, for 'HEALTH & SAFETY' reasons.

Wikileaks confirms what we all knew already.

Well done Spain!!!!!!

Isitme hamas was created by Israel. Well known and reported by Wikileaks.

Using bold and caps won't help you win the argument here. Israel is a monster to blockade Gaza on the off chance that Hamas brings weapons in. What about the latest in modern weaponry that Israel buys from abroad and has expire need on ye Gazans? Double standards and hypocrisy abound.

Can you explain why the blockade restricts calories??

Can you explain why israel, not Hamas but israel, prefer to keep palestine on the brink of a humanitarian crisis?

That's what the apologists do - shout loudly. While the rest of us object to the dehumanisation of the Gazans, and the slaughter of innocents.

Silly us, for not seeing it the IDF's way.

Except for good old Regev, of course. He found it impossible to shout down the Al Jazeera interviewer in the YT clip above. But, I must admit I did laugh (despite the tragic subject matter) at his tumbleweed silences at the more pertinent questions. He's an idiot. An apologist for a thug.

Isitme think about it logically. If someone came and stole your land through violence would you then happily let them tell you where and how to live? What would that say about you? Would you really be able to enjoy your life knowing that your oppressor had so much power over you?

Palestinians are normal people who have been forced into a situation that could happen to any of us. And all of us would want to fight back for freedom. This is not about Hamas. It is the same struggle that the slaves in America had and that black South Afticans had. It is the same struggle that India had against the British Empire. Are you suggesting that all those people too should have just given up and let evil regimes triumph without a fight. Most people would rather die fighting for justice and freedom than let evil triumph.

My son's just come back from the park and reported that 2 of my tributes appear to have been removed. The palestinian flag is just not going to be tolerated, is it? It's obv not just in Israel where dissent is repressed. And in the given context. So gutted.

In what way was Hamas created by Israel?

Wikileaks is based on rumour and speculation, lies and truth and prejudice all mixed together. You can read all kinds of things into it but it doesn't stand up to rigorous analysis because it is based on hearsay, speculation and 'leaks'.

It's like the Palestinian man on Channel 4 news said 'we are dying anyway'.

'but come on, "Israel created Hamas2? lolololol.'

Article in the Wall Street Journal called "How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas"

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah.

online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847

Do you think Israel wants peace and a two state settlement?

If there are radicals who oppose Israel then Israel does not need to make any concessions.

Isis is a newly created and funded bunch of extremists, who serve the purpose of attacking Shia, which is Israel's main threat.

With Isis around, no one can make peace or negotiate and if Isis ever get a hold in Gaza, then there will never be peace.

So why don't the US destroy these 10,000 volunteers and mercenaries in Isis in their Toyota MPVs? Why are the U against Assad, who just happens to be Shia, when Isis, this new creaton of extremists in the region, is fighting against Assad alongside Al Qaeda and all the mercenaries and puppets?

they don't want a 2 state or a 1 state settlement. they just want the whole thing for themselves and the palestinians exterminated. it is abundantly clear.

Just to remind people that blockade is an act of war.

Israel have blockaded Gaza.

Gaza resists.

I don't see why Israelis are so surprised?

TheHoneyBadger .... "we can all read", well clearly not, if you have not read up on Hamas and accuse others posting of all sorts (far more offensive in MY book), for YOUR OWN agenda.

Once people acknowledge THE BASIC FACTS and the consequences of the power struggle WITHIN Gaza by Palestinians, it puts a lot into perspective.

Hamas has sworn to live in the area now called Israel, Israel are against it.

Hamas wishes to militarily punch around 20 times above it's weight into Israel, Israel won't allow it.

Hamas's 'approval rating' before the conflict dropped to around 20%, so Hamas (and the Israelis) want their people to see 'a victory' of sorts for political reasons.

What a shame the people of Gaza have to suffer for the ambitions of HAMAS, when economicaly and socially, things were starting to look better BEFORE Hamas took over the Gaza, by force.

TheHoneyBadger, it almost looks that way.

Whenever there is a real chance of peace, something always seems to go wrong.

The blockades have been an issue for years - and Israeli forcees have taken more than Palestinian lives enforcing them, sadly. But apparently, they can do this with impunity also.

They can do whatever they like - including bulldoze American citizens like Rachael Corrie, and shoot journalists and peace protester like Ian Hook and Tom Hurndall. I remember Tom Hurndall's words - "I will protest until Israeli soldiers stop shooting Palestinian children." Or until an Israeli soldier shoots him in the head.

Qn - I'm sorry to hear about the removal of your tributes

Have been in tears reading the I remember the children fb page. I have joined and will be remembering them too.

It's become unbearable now to read the names of those who have been killed.

Claig ..... have you READ your own link???

It appears to me that Cohen is saying, that if Israel had snuffed out the Islamists currently know as Hamas, instead of "tolerating" them, we would not have the problem.

So how many Islamists do Israel have to kill before it is NOT their fault they exist??????

When is a political meeting of potential radicals, not a hall full of civilians and someones sons???

Fuck me, has this been the level of 'balanced debate' on here? Give me strength.

I think it is worth reading articles by the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset to gain an understanding of what some people want the objectives to be. He is the person in yesterday's Daily Mail article

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html

Here is one of his articles

"What are we fighting for? Against whom? In the beginning of this war, the stated purpose was to halt the rocket attacks on Israel. This morning, I heard that the goal is the destruction of most of the terror tunnels (at least the ones we know about).

But rockets are not enemies and I cannot remember ever being attacked by a tunnel. The enemy is fanatical Arab Islam"

...

"The only innocents in Gaza are the IDF soldiers."

....

"Everyone is Israel is asking why we did not destroy the terror tunnels earlier even though we knew of their existence. Hizballah has one hundred thousand missiles aimed at us from the north. When those missiles start to fly, what will we say? After all, we knew…Why didn’t we destroy them?"

www.jewishisrael.org/good-guys-moshe-feiglin/

'It appears to me that Cohen is saying, that if Israel had snuffed out the Islamists currently know as Hamas, instead of "tolerating" them, we would not have the problem.'

But they didn't. That is the whole point. They encouraged them as a counterweight to Fatah and Arafat. Why do you think they did that?

Do you think they want peace and a two state solution?

Ask yourself about Isis. With Isis there can never ever be peace. So why is Cameron and every other Western leader not stopping these 10,000 mercenaries from spreading and threatening established countries like Iraq and Syria?

Israel "tolerated" Hamas when they could have stopped them early on and made a peace deal with Arafat.

Why is no one stopping Isis now?

If you listened to Cameron you might think that Putin and Russia is a greater threat to the world than this newly created bunch of barbaric extremists known as Isis, who just happen to have Shia Syria, Iran and Iraq as their enemies

i'm afraid i'm going to skim over every thread littered with caps and bold.

Israel already talk to Hamas, and have done for years

Feiglin questioned why the tunnels, that have existed and been known about for years, wee not destroyed before. They couldn't be built overnight. They have been in existence for years and rockets have been fired for years.

"The former Israeli Intelligence Minister called for negotiations with Hamas in an interview with CNN’s Christiane Amanpour on Tuesday."

"It is “inconvenient politically,” Halevy said, for both Israel and Hamas to admit that they negotiate. But the truth, he said, is that they have already been doing it for years."

amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/07/15/israel-intelligence-efraim-halevy-hamas-mossad/

The Deputy Speaker of the Knesset spells it out even more clearly in another article called "Instead of Bombing Gazans, Pay them to Leave"

"Demography is not the problem. With thought and pre-planning, we can deal with the demographic problem. Israel’s demographic situation is good and a very large wave of aliyah to Israel is about to take place. The Hamas is not the problem, either. The IDF can easily defeat it – if instead of being directed to get entangled in tunnels and alleys, it will be directed to win.
All the tactical problems have solutions. But the real problem is not with the enemy; it is with ourselves. Are we willing now – after all the blows that we have received – to negate the Oslo mentality and internalize that this is our Land?"

www.jewishisrael.org/moshe-feiglin-dont-kill-gazans-pay-leave/

It's impossible to read your posts, Isitme. I have reported them.

Also, I think it's incredibly rich to complain that Hamas have 'sworn to live in the area now called Israel'.

Um. Are you going to tell us next that Israel doesn't want to live in Gaza?

Isitme you do realise that it is possible to debate without aggressive SHOUTING, bold and underlining?

I don't want to derail the thread, but is Wikileaks a reliable source of information or not? If not, why not?

Not there is any media out there that isn't biased, especially in the US since the elimination of the Fairness Doctrine.