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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
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8
halfdrunkcoffee · 08/08/2014 18:29

Sabrinnnnnnnna, thanks for the links. I've seen the JVP video. I've done a lot of reading over the years of the history of the conflict, although some things I am a bit rusty on as it's been a while since I read some of the books. I know there were refugees from both the '48 and '67 wars, but wanted to check which war FP was referring to. It is terrible that they have not been able to visit their relatives for all these years.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 08/08/2014 18:35

Ah, misunderstood you, halfdrunk.

TheHoneyBadger · 08/08/2014 18:36

just had a half hour skype call with a friend in egypt.

they get more reportage of hamas there it seems - as in get to hear/see hamas statements which we don't seem to get. maybe it's like the old gerry ira man having to have his voice dubbed for any ira statement back in the day - as in seeing as hamas have been declared 'terrorists' they don't get airspace? anyway.

i was filling him in on how the apologists are doing the 'why don't egypt open their borders' and other odds and ends and he was filling me in on how things are being reported and perceived here.

he's main comment repeated was, 'something fucking stinks here'. the current amongst his circle of people seems to be that there are big players at stake and very deliberate timings and actions but no one confidently saying who, what, why. the gas issue doesn't seem to be reported there or discusssed widely. there seems to just be a sense of some big players (in his words: be they hamas or israel or america or a combo of all) have something very stinky going on. he surprised me with his neutrality to be honest.

whilst people assume 'all those arabs' are on the same side, part of one faction etc that has never actually been my experience with friends there. it is definitely not a 'hamas is right 'cos they're arabs and we're all extremists and want to take over the world' mentality. just like most of us on this thread all of the middle eastern friends i have who are genuine friends rather than just contacts are concerned about the poor 'little people' caught up in what they see as a fucked up very fishy power game between big players.

sorry if this is irrelevant but i can tell you my egyptian friends seem as 'outside looking in on power and wealth' as we are. this is not an ethnic or religious issue this is about POWER and the games of the few who are obsessed with and have a shot at that power.

halfdrunkcoffee · 08/08/2014 18:36

Also, at the risk of someone shouting whataboutery, Lebanon bars Palestinian refugees and their descendants from working in many professions as they are classed as foreigners. I also think there should have been more pressure and effort from all parties involved to get Palestinians in Lebanon and other Arab countries out of refugee camps after all these years.

TheHoneyBadger · 08/08/2014 18:39

i guess the leap between my mentality and his was that he doesn't actually even really believe israel and hamas are enemies. i think reading between the lines that even that polar alleged enemy dynamic is seen as a farce.

don't know if he's right but i am inclined to think we're all being played for fools.

TheHoneyBadger · 08/08/2014 18:43

they are foreigners in lebanon. they're not in palestine.

halfdrunkcoffee · 08/08/2014 20:15

Honeybadger, would you think it fair if the descendants of refugees who came to the UK in the 1940s or 1960s were still living in refugee camps, classed as foreigners and barred from, say, becoming doctors? Even if it was a great injustice that they had been forced to leave their homes in the first place?

Backinthering · 08/08/2014 20:29

I'd prefer to see Palestinians in Lebanon given citizenship BUT with a right to return should they choose. So dual citizenship.

I found this a very powerful personal account from a young woman in Gaza. All that intelligence and clear sightedness, kept in a death trap prison.

Yruapita · 08/08/2014 22:18

Sky news -

Amnesty International claimed it has evidence that Israel's military forces have specifically targeted hospitals, health workers and ambulance personnel during the conflict.

However, Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev told Sky News: "We don't target hospitals, we don't target civilians."

Same bull shit, different day! Sorry for using bad language! I will be at the local protest tomorrow. Flowers for all the people attending the big one in London.

somewheresafe · 08/08/2014 23:23

10 killed today. Many injured. Hospitals reporting many shortages and having to do ops without anaesthetic.

Israel continues to flaunt it's breaches of international law.

What is the actual point of ban ki moon?

thecatfromjapan · 08/08/2014 23:30

I'm disgusted with Obama.

oohdaddypig · 09/08/2014 06:17

Is the 'we remember the children' activity still going on?

I don't have any middle eastern friends. But I'm absolutely haunted by the sights I have seen. I feel I have to do something....anything. Can I participate as a complete stranger?

I took my kids for a mundane vaccination today. Whilst in another part of the planet families are being bombed to pieces and children of the same age left in freezers.

How has it come to this?

Hakluyt · 09/08/2014 06:25

Yes, oodaddypig, it is. And yes, please please join. My iPad's playing up and won't let me do links- but it's easy to find on Facebook- we remember the children

oohdaddypig · 09/08/2014 06:30

Thanks - I have joined.

A lovely idea in such horrendous times :(

TheHoneyBadger · 09/08/2014 08:06

on the refugees my point was that the immigration policies of another country don't excuse in any way the expulsion and displacement of a people by the country we're actually talking about. they wouldn't need to be dealing with the immigration policies of foreign countries if they hadn't been driven out or could now return.

of course it's what a bout ism.

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 08:34

But for one short speech, the president spoke as a man of action leading a country that does something to avoid the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians. “That’s who we are,” he said.

This has pissed me right off! I'm glad the people in Iraq are getting help,
but what about the innocent civilians in Gaza Obama? Who were you(US) then?

blogs.channel4.com/kylie-morris-blog/iraq-isis-barack-obama-united-states/404

OneStepCloser · 09/08/2014 08:42

Just a 'wave out' for everyone going on the demo today, hopefully it`ll be a large turnout.

Yruapita · 09/08/2014 09:45

Arab world leaders could have made a difference. They didn't. Still don't.

Joan Rivers is a disgusting foul woman. Don't even want to link!

My local protest will be small. Just hoping for a massive protest in London.

Backinthering · 09/08/2014 10:08

Joan Rivers... words fail me.

Hope all goes well at the demos today and that there is a massive turnout.

thecatfromjapan · 09/08/2014 10:30

Hello to all coming in to Central London today.
Love and best wishes to all attending demonstrations where they are.
Love and hope to all of those who are facing today with fear - May this time of fear pass.

LondonGirl33 · 09/08/2014 11:36

All this populist anti-Israeli posturing is dangerous. It shows not the slightest grasp of the reality of Islamist aggression in the Middle East and the depth of the challenge that Israel faces.

In practice denouncing the Jewish state means siding with the malevolent, murderous forces of jihadism, a stance that not only represents a complete inversion of morality but a ­suicidal disdain for the interests of western civilisation.

Israel is up against a fanatical enemy – the Hamas ­terror network, dedicated to the destruction of the Jewish state.

All this populist anti-Israeli posturing is dangerous
The idea, sedulously cultivated by western appeasers of radical Islam, that the Palestinian movement is innocent is absurd.

The present conflict was started by Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians and since the beginning of July more than 2,800 of these ­missiles have been launched.

Britain would not tolerate an ­aerial assault without striking back so why should Israel?

The fact that Hamas’s rockets have inflicted only a few casualties is a reflection of their poor technology, not of their users’ lethal intent.

Moreover Hamas has constructed a series of tunnels into Israel with the aim of inflicting more deadly attacks. Israel, like any other nation, has a duty to defend itself by destroying this terrorist infrastructure.

In this context the parrot cry for negotiations is fatuous. Hamas, an offshoot of the infamous Muslim Brotherhood, is not interested in a peace settlement, only in the annihilation of Israel and the Jewish people. Its founding charter, drawn up in 1988, proclaims that “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.”

Last week an imam in a Palestinian mosque declared: “Our doctrine in fighting you, the Jews, is that we will totally exterminate you. We will not leave a single one of you alive.”

So on what aspect of anti-Semitic genocide is Israel ­supposed to negotiate with Hamas?

Instead of traducing Israel western politicians and the media should face up to the terrifying global threat of fundamentalist Islam, of which Hamas is a key part.

We see that threat all over the world from the turmoil in Libya to the kidnapping of girls in Nigeria, from the stoning of women in Afghanistan to the savage persecution of Christians in Iraq.

If Israel’s defences crack, it will be another milestone in the slide from a liberal civilisation into a new dark, totalitarian age dominated by bigotry, misogyny and intolerance.

The baleful force of anti-Semitism is central to this aggressive Islamist ideology.

That is why, among militant Muslims and their western cheerleaders, there is such a neurotic obsession with Gaza. It is the ideal vehicle for trying to demonise Israel and delegitimise the Jewish state’s very existence.

The tragic irony is that Israel is one of the most open, prosperous countries yet now, thanks to the vicious anti-Jewish racism dressed up as concern for the Palestinians, it is treated in fashionable progressive circles as a pariah.

In trumpeting their compassion for Palestine and opposition to Israel progressive ­activists could hardly be more misguided.

There is nothing compassionate about Hamas’s creed of Islam, which seeks complete Sharia law and the subjugation of the infidel.

Similarly when western progressives bleat about ending “the cycle of violence” they are in denial about the violent nature of jihadism. Hamas’s 1988 charter explicitly states, “initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions are in contradiction of the principles of the Islamic resistance movement”.

British liberals often point to the success of the Northern Irish peace process but in the early 1990s the Republicans gave up because they were beaten by the British Army and the loyalist paramilitaries.

That is what needs to happen in Gaza. Israel has to break Hamas’s ability to wage war. Only by defeating terrorists can peace be achieved.

Rather than ­carping from the sidelines ­western politicians should ­support that goal. Israel is a bulwark of ­civilisation against Islamism. Ultimately we will pay a terrible price if we betray this heroic nation.

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 11:36

My thoughts with all you at the demos today. I'm going around replacing my remember the children flowers for fresh ones. I wish I could be there.

Joan Rivers = disgusting.

goldvelvet · 09/08/2014 11:43

^^ LondonGirl

I'm happy with my stance in all of this. I don't hate Jews nor am I Muslim.
I am against the killing of civilians, obliteration of homes, schools, hospital & UN shelters in the name of defence. The death of babies, toddler, children and teens. The disfiguring & mental torment of those left behind, parents loosing children & children becoming orphans.

But thank you for your input.

PigletJohn · 09/08/2014 11:56

All this populist pro-Israel posturing is unconvincing.