Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

news.sky.com/story/1315105/israel-will-not-negotiate-as-ceasefire-ends
a 10 year old boy has been killed by Israel already today.

Thanks creeky, have signed.

Oh good grief, how horrible. Poor children.

Have signed as well, I really hope they can get that ship there.

Here is the link to the Hamas ceasefire terms which Israel rejected. None of them sound remotely unreasonable in fact they are a bare minimum of what the Palestinians deserve.
But this was of course far too much for Netenyahu.

And I think this is massively important.
It's a Guardian article from 2006 about how Hamas dropped the dedestruction of Israel from their charter.
Which somewhat blows the Israeli excuses out of the water. They are pretty keen that everyone should think it's still the case.

For those who are interested in the parallels with apartheid South Africa, this is interesting. See www.seamac.org/EqualRights.htm

Backinthering - that is their manifesto for the election, rather than their charter, which still holds. See, for example, the following from May this year. And there hasn't been another manifesto, because as with all Islamist parties the motto is one man, one vote, once....

www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/05/interview-abu-marzouk-hamas-israel-fatah-reconciliation.html#

Egypt should also open her borders to Gazans. They are currently firmly closed and have been for ages. Why?

sorry samg76 did you miss my request for some evidence of your claim that palestinians refuse medical aid from israel? and would you care to respond to the evidence of how difficult it is for children to actually get out to medical care which contradicts your previous assertion?

otherwise it seems like you just detract and derail with lies that you refuse to show evidence for and ignore the evidence shown to you of where you have not been accurate and move on to the next detraction.

THB - my internet search works exactly the same way as yours, I'd imagine, but here's an example. What a detraction? BitR said the Hamas Covt has been changed. It clearly hasn't. Seems reasonable enough to mention....

www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4550862,00.html

so the answer is that NO you can't provide evidence for your massive accusations and statements and will never respond to counter argument or evidence presented to you? so long as we know i guess.

THB - I think the link on my post of 14:58 showed precisely what I claimed. As for why the Israelis may be cautious about who comes out of the Gaza for treatment, you may recall that a few years ago a patient returned to Beersheva hospital as an attempted suicide bomber.

So many threads going on about this issue at the moment. The apologists are spreading themselves very thin. Why don't they join this thread?

Probably because every justification and non factual point they make has been challenged and disproved.

Massive accusations about Hamas and human shields being put forward with no one really challenging them.

There is no justification for the blockade and Jewish settlements in Gaza an the West Bank - none at all. The fact that there is documented evidence that Israel have been keeping Gaza on the very brink of a humanitarian crisis as a deliberate policy is a gross abuse of human rights.

ok - once a medical patient attempted to be a suicide bomber v a gazillion times israelis shot, bombed, imprisoned without charge and denied basic resources to palestinians.

this tit for tat business only works if the tit and the tat are kind of parallel. it's that old key word of proportionality again. there is some kind of national psychosis going on in israel if 'someone once tried to set off a bomb' equals 'it's ok to deliberately prevent very many patients with cancer accessing life saving treatment'. or somewhere in that 1.7million crowded patch of land is a terrorist so it's ok to bomb the fuck out of women and children.

no one is saying the people you are against have not done wrong - they're asking you to retain your sanity and compassion and get a fucking grip of what constitutes reality and proportionality.

What does everyone else think of Hamas' ceasefire conditions? Haaretz is describing them as a golden opportunity for Israel.
By the sound of it, Israel are not taking the Egyption negotiations seriously. They've shown up for a few hours out of several days, after being days late to arrive in the first place.

i think they're perfectly reasonable BUT clearly 'peace' is not what israel is after. total domination and peace are not good bedfollows.

FP 1967 was not 67 years ago! Do you mean they've been there since 1948?

wow halfdrunk THAT was the bit that stuck out to you?

glad you went FP. it's hard to hear and confront at the personal level isn't it? very much brings home that every one of those dead, displaced, disempowered etc is a real human being just like you or i

it's a very selectively blind world we live in.

Honeybadger I just wanted to check. I just wrote a short reply as at the time my DCs were about to kick off and was going to add more later. There's no need to be rude or imply that I don't care about the injustices. It's awful however long they've been there but I am also interested whether they were made refugees in the 1948 war as I have just been reading a harrowing account of this, or the 1967 six day war. The racism people are encountering in Jerusalem is awful too.

I think there were refugees in 1948, from the partitioning. More in 1967 of course.

This is quite a good intro, halfdrunk

It was always on the cards that some Palestinians arabs would have to be displaced to make the state of Israel.

winky if you're still reading this I've started an AIBU thread about the higher levels of attention given to Gaza than other events in the Middle East - that might be a more appropriate place to discuss that particular issue than this thread.

In terms of the airstrikes in Iraq, the situation is completely different - because of the geographical layout and logistics of the current situation it should be relatively easy for the US to target the militants with minimal civilian casualties, and there's also the fact that 40,000 civilians are in immediate danger if nothing is done to help them. If the Hamas militants were all in one place in Gaza and could be easily targeted with few civilian deaths, or even if they weren't but there was imminent danger of their killing 40,000 Israeli citizens, I don't think we'd be seeing nearly as much outrage.