Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

I did offer a bit of an explanation.

I think as well that for older people, the idea of the State of Israel was so new and exciting and dynamic that we feel particularly betrayed by how it has turned out. There was such hope .

winkywinkola - I can't answer for anyone else but, for me, it is because I feel that the Palestinian-Israel situation, and crucially the role of the US in that, is central to the instability across the Middle East.

I see the US as the problem. And this is THE place to apply pressure.

There is also the horrific scale of the situation. The imbalance. The use of propaganda and power, which - ironically - make me complicit, whether I like it or not - because this is being conducted by a State, at the level of a State, supported by the US superpower.

And the fact that my government doesn't represent my wishes in this area, at all.

All of this involves me profoundly.

Sab, you can put the same pressure on our government to take action about any injustice.

I'm aware of that - but do you understand our objection to our government supplying arms to a country that is using them to slaughter civilians and children? Right now, like this morning. It's an important difference.

Not that I don't think it's worth protesting all injustices - but it's a terrible defection to do the whataboutery thing.

everyone has explained their reasons and explained them well. unless the poster isn't reading the replies i think she/he has their answer so i wouldn't bother carrying on explaining personally. stay on the rails.

I quite like this. I shows the deaths as little figures so you can get a sense that actually each of these were a life. Sometimes when you see 500 dead etc you don't see it the same!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28666562

Gutted that the cease fire hasn't lasted.

BBC report this morning shows Gaza casualties - civilian/fighter ratio likely to be around what we and the US managed in Iraq or Afghanistan.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Interesting that they quite from an IDF spokesperson but nothing from Palestinian spokespeople.

According to those statistics, 73% (and potentially 88%) were civilians and 34% were women and children.

The Iraq war was also unjustified and there were protests against it. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Sam can you please please stop trying to justify the murder of innocent civilians. Nothing you say can justify what we have all seen.

I see that the new excuse being bandied around us that Britain have also killed during wars we've been involved in. But there is a world of difference between what we did in Iraq, which is deplorable, and the 66 year ongoing onslaught against the palestinians.

I've read all five of these threads now - its been a roller coaster. I've very much changed my stance on it all through looking at links and reading posts from people on here. The reasoned arguments have been very eye opening, the hysterical posts not so much.

I've been really interested to read from those within Isreal and from what i have seen most of them have condemmed what is happening but have tried to offer some insight into why isreal has taken the stance it has and I've seen most (rightly or wrongly) be chased away which is sad for discussion. I think if you want this thread to just be about action for the palestinians then the title should be changed. I for one need to see debate on this issue.

Its all made me take a real interest in the goings on in the middle east just now and it looks like this is going to be it for a while. I doubt we in the west will be safe from it and it will affect us. I've actually just broken down at work and had a real cry about it all. Watching those homelss people in Gaza with no where to go, those people stuck on the mountain in Iraq. I don't understand the different between sunni and shia but i will try to be more informed.

Re Gaza i can see that they want the blockade lifted. Can anyone explain the bloackade to me - i've been having a google. Is it so they can move freely from gaza to west bank and get supplies from there? I don't see how this blockade can continue. I also can see that it will probably take a very different isreal governemtn to take the very brave step of lifting the blockade as there is surely going to be attacks on isreal? There is so much i still don't understand.

oh and another thing which i've seen people bring up is what our government should do about it. I think the issue here is as som ehave pointed out is that our government have done simlar things so who would they be to take the moral high ground? I'm just about the read this~

blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/gaza-prove-gamechanging-event/2118

the blockade is a bit more than that - they cannot even getting building materials in to rebuild their homes when they are bombed and destroyed. the amount of food allowed in is controlled right down to calorie counting and they don't have the freedom to get the meds in that they need. literally it is about starving a people of resources hence they don't even have enough gauze in the hospitals let alone decent drugs and pain relief and that was before they bombed several hospitals.

free movement would be great but it's way up there on the luxury list compared to being able to have even the most bare resources to run a society on.

if you fancy a 'debate' i'm sure you could start a debate club about israel thread and plenty would join you.

Oh I'd be crap at a debate, always have been as i'm too much of the sort to see if from all angles!! I just meant that debate is useful in a situation like this to challenge certain viewpoints. I definately had some of these viewpoints and when they were brought up and people responded well to them (and not hysterically which i have seen in other discussions about this) and added links and stories it has made me go and read them and discover new sources and arguments. Its meant i can challenge those around me (even if futile).

Yep i do realise they are totally screwed re getting building and medical supplies in and i keep imagining what it would be like if i took my injured child to the hospitla and had to watch them die or be in pain cause they hadnothing to treat them with :( I just meant where would they get these mateirla from? Are they looking to trade with Isreal? Or countries outwith? Egypt clearly not helping now and i think the bloackage on the sea is awful. It just seem to hopeless where Gaza is. Is it on speaking terms with the west bank? Is that what palestine would be if a two state situation did work? The west bank with isreal in the middle then gaza - would that work?

Very sorry about my spelling, it won't let me go back and correct!!

The Paul mason article is interesting, ladylike. Thanks for linking it.

Sorry i know i have a lot of questions and no one has to answer these. I'll keep trying to find out more info for myself and keep reading :)

Agree the Paul Mason article was very insightful, thank you ladylou

babbas - no-one is talking about new excuses. The fact is that wars are very rarely fought as they used to be, ie two armies on a battlefield. Almost all wars are now asymmetrical, fought in civilian areas. If the Israelis show that their militant/civilian ratio is the same as or even better than others, then it's obviously more difficult for the British govt to criticise them.

Loulou30 - there's no medical blockade, and lots of Gazans, including children, are treated in Israeli for free. The Palestinians refused various offers of medicines, including blood, from the Israelis.

sam that is just nonsense. there have been tonnes of articles and accounts from ex israeli soldiers etc linked to on this thread that show the reality of what it is actually like to try and get a sick child a permit to go into israel for medical treatment. perhaps you could link to some evidence of palestinians refusing medicine rather than just assert it as fact without anything to back it up?

and i can't comprehend the 'we care about children and medical care for palestinians' in the wake of having bombed how many hospitals now? and killed how many children? that's beyond double think.

SamG, there are certain war crimes/crimes against humanity that the IDF are committing in Gaza that the UK did not commit in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Israel is an occupying force in Gaza - and as such has a responsibility for the safety of the Palestinians living there. Which, I would say, involves not bombing sleeping children in UN shelters, and reducing their whole infrastructure to rubble. Then lying about it/ calling the victims human shields.

^ I am not justifying the Iraq war - I was 100% against the UK going into Iraq and Afghanistan.

the effect of the blockade on children's health

This was the shocking impact of the blockade on the children before the bombing. A lot of those children are probably now dead since the bombing. We a failing them.

Sam, even if that is true, would you want to take a blood transfusion from people who will, steal your land, happily kill your children and defecate in your home?

Have linked this before. The impact of Israel delaying issuing permits to children to travel out of Gaza for medical treatment is also mentioned in this report. It is all so utterly horrendous.

I'm not sure if this petition has been posted for more signatures but i'll post it again if it has.

Its to send the hospital ship out to Gaza to treat those injured who have very limited access to any treatment.

www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-rt-hon-philip-hammond-mp-send-rfa-argus-hospital-ship-to-gaza?recruiter=121675135&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=email&utm_source=share_petition