Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

tiggersreturn Hamas had formed a unity government with Fatah and were prepared to negotiate. It's Likud that doesn't recognise a two-state solution, and contrived a conflict.
The whole thing about Hamas wanting every Jew dead, refusing to negotiate etc etc is Israeli propaganda designed to justify their actions.
And what disgraceful actions those are, against a trapped civilian population with nowhere to run or hide.
Israel as it stands now, is not a decent or a moral country. It looks like there have been multiple war crimes committed in Gaza over the last month. There is ongoing brutality and injustice in the West Bank.
And as a country, they have somehow got themselves into a state where this is condoned and justified, and dissent has become dangerous.
And it's THIS that needs to be addressed, this that is the obstacle for peace.

I know what you mean goldvelvet. Coming home the other day I was really exhausted and just so thankful to see my house and to come in and sit down. And I thought how awful if I had come home to find my home and possessions destroyed and have no place to call my own.

saadia and goldvelvet, yes been feeling the same. I cry every day and feel guilty that my home is safe when others don't have that safety.

welcome to the status quo

The link below shows the soldiers' joy as they destroy homes in Gaza. I wasnt able to play the video for some reason. Dont know if there's an issue with my connection or is it the website. Even without seeing it, The title makes my stomach turn. It is disgraceful.

mondoweiss.net/2014/08/soldiers-ecstatic-destroy.html

goldvelvet, did you ever see "The Promise" ?

It changed my opinion of the Israel-Palestine conflict quite significantly. I had previously had no idea of the settlements, the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis and so on.

I do support the existence of the state of Israel, just not it's oppression of Palestinians. And they are oppressed - horrifically so.

Btw - I didn't just watch a TV drama and change my opinion. It prompted me to do some more research, is what I meant.

Edam - what do you compare rockets falling on civilian populations without provocation to? Would you prefer V1s? The continual one-sided narrative and ignoring of the 1000s of rockets falling on Israel with no provocation and most of the time no retaliation but ignored by the world is what makes Israel think that no one values the blood of their children.

Yrupaita - if you say things like that when a country is in a state of war then yes that is treasonous.

Runes - I am not a supporter of Netanyahu as a politician neither this time round nor the first time he was elected. He has held on in power by making a truly unstable coalition of divergent parties with few positive agendas. The best thing that could happen to Israel is they get rid of their proportional representation system that rewards loonies and gives single interest parties too much representation. There may well be validity to some of the points he makes but the ones it doesn't address are:

1. You need a partner to make peace with and enforce it. Whether Abbas is that partner should be explored properly.

1. Hamas are an Islamic group linked with other jihadist groups who aren't exactly strong on women's rights or religious diversity. Expecting them to turn into peace loving hippies or even a democratic society over night is a bit of a stretch.

1. Let's say he's right. Brilliant. But what if he's wrong? Then you have WW3 in the area on your hands. Given the track records involved if you were the PM of Israel with your family and friends living there would you be brave enough to take such a decision?

Israeli political opinion leant to the left but has moved increasingly rightwards since the withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. The fact that this didn't even start to deliver peace but just threatened the pre 1967 borders majorly contributed to this. There are many left leaning people in Israel who call parts over the green line the occupied territory and consider that Israel would be better off without them. They consider them negotiable. They do not consider their own homes within pre-1967 borders negotiable and when they're attacked the reaction is much deeper.

goldvelvet i want to shake people who just shrug their shoulders. What if this massacre was happening to us? What if the rest of the world was shrugging its shoulders watching us die? What if the leaders of powerful countires were watching us die and talking about the aggressors right to self-defense? What if it was our children dying and leaders were still supporting the occupying force? I found that last sentence hard to write even. Any person with half a moral fibre in their body should feel the need to do something, anything for those children and the oppressed of Palestine. Today it's Gaza, tomorrow it could be us. We are all Palestinians

Tigger, does hamas being an islamic group, with links with jihadist groups, excuse or justify the bombing of those civilian children in the UN school? Does anything you say in your post justify it?

UN schools* plural.

Yes we need to keep this thread active. Just because the suffering is not on our screens all the time does not mean it is no longer there. In fact it is worse.

1888 killed
73% civillains
9800 injured
187000 living in UN shelters
10000 homes destroyed, more damaged
12 hospitals destroyed
141 schools destroyed
6 UN shelters destroyed
The Great Mosque of Gaza destroyed
The only power plant destroyed.

The bastards cannot be allowed to get away with it again.
Glad that PA are planning to take Israel to ICC.
Feel really useless again today.

Backinthering the whole thing about Hamas wanting to kill all the Jews comes from what they say in Arabic because they think no one in the West can understand it. If you want to see videos with translations you can find them here www.memri.org/ or if you don't trust it learn Arabic.

I don't know if you have ever been to Israel but what you describe above is not the country I have spent much time in. It is a society where people care about their neighbours and the rest of the country to the point of being interfering busybodies (everyone on a bus will tell you how to parent your child), it is a country that values life and people and it is a tense country that feels itself permanently besieged by others who want to remove such life whether by suicide bombs in pizza restaurants, buses, rockets, warring neighbours. All these things leave a mark. It is a country where people are free to speak their mind and can't be shut up. It is a country that has Arab MKs including ones who disagree with the current war and voice this. You say dissent is dangerous. Who has been killed for dissent? Who has even been arrested for dissent?

Have you seen what Hamas do to people who dissent in Gaza?www.worldtribune.com/2014/07/31/sources-hamas-quickly-puts-dissent-gaza-kills-palestinian-protesters/

That doesn't make Israel a perfect place or mean they couldn't do many things better. But this wholesale condemnation and attempt to place the situation in goodies and baddies is not justified.

tiggers we've had quite a lot of in-depth discussion about Israel and the current state of it's society on this and preceding threads, including with a couple of people whose relatives live there.
They both concur that in the current situation, dissent is, to say the least, difficult.
Posters have also shared their stories of travel in Israel and they have not been as positive as yours.
Equally, Israelis may care deeply about each other, and I'm not disputing this, but sadly those charitable feelings do not extend to Palestinians. I've taken an interest in the region for years and I've literally lost count of the number of accounts I've read of teenagers shot dead by the IDF, humiliation at checkpoints, homes bulldozed.... I recently saw a documentary about a market in Jerusalem where they had to put up thin wire mesh to stop settlers throwing stuff at them. The urine still went through though.
Re. Hamas - I don't think they're marvelous or anything but they've made it quite clear they're prepared to negotiate. And, bottom line - Hamas are not the ones who have, over the last month, committed numerous war crimes including the bombing of UN shelters whose co-ordinates were repeatedly given, by the UN, to the IDF.
On a personal note, while I've not been to Israel, young post-military-service Israelis travelling in groups have been some of the least pleasant people I have ever met. And I say this as a white South African.

Sabrinna - let's say this hadn't happened. Let's say that the tunnels which have been destroyed were still there. Let's say that Hamas' plan to kidnap, kill and torture hundreds of Israeli women and children on Rosh hashana had happened. Let's say the Palestinians rejoiced in the street while this happened. Would you be posting about the awfulness of this or would you more likely be posting that Israel was bombing innocent Palestinians in retaliation?

There is no good answer to that one.

No one should ever die in such circumstances but when people are under threat and are governed by an organisation intent on embedding themselves deep in the civilian population than that is what will happen.

I'm going to bed now but I'll leave you with the words of Amoz Oz a prominent peace left winger.

Amoz Oz: I would like to begin the interview in a very unusal way: by presenting one or two questions to your readers and listeners. May I do that?

Deutsche Welle: Go ahead!

Question 1: What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?

Question 2: What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?

With these two questions I pass the interview to you.

May all these questions go away and peace come to everyone and particularly the people on both sides who suffer from this conflict.

If you're particularly interested in the UN schools you might want to read this and www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/05/france-24-reporter-reveals-hamas-rocket-launcher-fired-near-civilians-united-nations-facility-and-reporters-video/

No child should ever be killed in this way but if you hide behind a child to kill and deliberately endanger them then you increase the chance of these awful things happening, which is of course Hamas' policy.

Defending themselves my arse. They are blood thirsty warmongers. It makes me feel very unsympathetic towards the Israelis, and I don't want to feel that way.

Btw - there are no gruesome pictures in the ^ above (but, boy, have I seen enough of those to last a lifetime).

let's say this hadn't happened.

It has happened. You can't deny it and start theorising now!

What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery?

Well, I sure as hell wouldn't bomb all the little boys and little girls on his side of the street.

tiggers no-one has been able to find any evidence of children being used, or civilians being used, as human shields during this conflict.
There was a cache of weapons found in a school which was disused at the time.
I think though, seeing as there has been so much accusation and counter-accusation, that both sides should submit to the ICC has the Palestinians are requesting. Lets get to the bottom of this.
Israel is not keen, incidentally. They don't recognise the ICC.

You know - so many answers to tiggers question are coming me now, that don't involve either the killing of the son on the dad's lap, or the slaughter of other innocent children.

I guess that's the difference between tigger and me.

Indeed. It might occur to me to wonder why he was so pissed off in the first place.
Then, I might remember it's because I stole the house I'm in from his family, killed most of them, and made him go and live in the run-down shack opposite.
I suppose at that point, I might apologise and offer him some of his land back.

I am just sick of all the goady posters on various threads this eve with their imaginary scenarios and you-can't-boycott-us we -make -everything-shit. PMT has rendered me incapable of articulating my horror in a way that won't get me deleted atm.

And he would more likely be throwing stones at me, while I sat with a group of armed IDF soldiers protecting my house. I may also remember that I burned down his olive trees, and had his father arrested for "stealing water" earlier that week.

Question 2: What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?

That ^ is fear-mongering propaganda of the type the IDF just loves.

Or would you say the same about the Warsaw ghetto tunnels?

sorry haven't caught up totally yet but backinthering - don't feel guilty that's crazy, feel grateful and utterly convinced that everyone deserves to be safe of having their children murdered or house destroyed by advanced military weaponry in the night. nothing to feel guilty for - this is how it should be and how it could be if israel could just follow international law. i feel sad and sorry and angry and all sorts but i only feel guilty for the way that i, like most, have always known this at one level or another but have let myself be lulled back to sleep after the latest hellishness itms.

i really hope that this time they've gone so far and we've seen so much that we won't do a mr sandman look at this royal baby or plane crash or scandal over here and hush back to sleep now.

and tigger quote:It is hard to achieve peace with a counterpart who openly preaches for your death

really? you think? imagine how much harder it is with a counterpart who actively IS fucking killing you? worse than someone having said it 30 years ago or thinking it in their hearts i should say. far worse to ACTUALLY be being slaughtered as a group than to have to hear that someone might like to eradicate you.

yep, i dare the words 'proportionality', 'context' and 'rationality' are defined differing for israelis. there is so much twisted, and i mean twisted as in exploited off path, having had it's natural shape mutilated etc, logic. the puppy is very, very sick.

omg i've caught up and am slightly in love with a couple of people this evening after reading their posts and aware of just how much more patience some people have than me.

thought this, "The whole thing about Hamas wanting every Jew dead, refusing to negotiate etc etc is Israeli propaganda designed to justify their actions.

And what disgraceful actions those are, against a trapped civilian population with nowhere to run or hide.

Israel as it stands now, is not a decent or a moral country. It looks like there have been multiple war crimes committed in Gaza over the last month. There is ongoing brutality and injustice in the West Bank.

And as a country, they have somehow got themselves into a state where this is condoned and justified, and dissent has become dangerous." merited a round of applause for it's patient, distilled, facts not emotion, summary.

apologies for my random comments in the last couple of days. it is pretty intense processing the images and the accounts and the depths of what has been going on.