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News

Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
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8
edamsavestheday · 07/08/2014 16:19

That story about Netanyahu trying to persuade American to protect Israel from the International Criminal Court shows how despicable the Israeli government is. If they were confident that they had not committed war crimes, they wouldn't need to hide behind America.

It is important to hear Israeli views but I cannot understand anyone who tries to justify the slaughter of innocent children.

edamsavestheday · 07/08/2014 16:21

And I used to be well-disposed to Israel. This terrible mass murder has seen the scales fall from my eyes. I think I've sadly lost a friend over it - someone who lived in Israel for a decade and believes anything is justified because Hamas fire rockets. It's very sad - I'd be prepared to stay friends and agree to disagree, but I fear she feels differently.

Yruapita · 07/08/2014 18:46

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/gaza-israel-movement-that-dare-not-speak-its-name

In Israel, one cannot utter much in opposition to the Government or IDF at the moment. It is so sad.

edamsavestheday · 07/08/2014 18:58

That link is so sad - death threats from leading politicians for anyone daring to object to the war FFS.

Wannabestepfordwife · 07/08/2014 19:56

I'm not sure whether to be heartened by this or whether it's a load of old flannel www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gaza-conflict-government-considering-ban-on-arms-sales-to-israel-9655296.html

tiggersreturn · 07/08/2014 20:51

Yrupita - that isn't what that article is saying.

The key quote is " But during a time of war, opposition is seen as disloyalty, as siding with the enemy. People will protest at the government, but not the military. "

The military are people's brothers, husbands, boyfriends, sons (and daughters too). Israel is a democracy and everyone is free to speak their mind and do. If people say something which others dislike they'll express that.

If someone had walked around London in the Battle of Britain writing articles stating the RAF pilots were killers who should be locked up they wouldn't have been walking around for long.

That is a comparison.

This

"People leave their liberalism at the green line [the 1967 border],"

and

this

"the peace movement was dealt a harsh blow eight years ago when Ariel Sharon pulled the army and the settlers out of Gaza only for the situation to get worse. Since then there have been 10,000 rockets fired from the Gaza strip." Middle-of-the-road Israelis have lost faith in the idea that you could swap land for peace. "

are the key points.

There are Israelis who care deeply about the Palestinians, who protest the occupation and just want to live in peace but they do not deny their own right to exist. What that first statement means is that in their minds the west bank is a place populated by extremists and/or is negotiable. The 1948 borders and their right to live peacefully are not. When rockets start falling on Tel Aviv their liberalism goes. The only alternative in their mind is to be wiped out.

Land/settlements for peace was the theme of many with many thinking that if all settlements went peace would come. The first trial of this has not demonstrated that equation as a working one. It hardly encourages further trials of this idea.

Springheeled · 07/08/2014 21:21

thexxed repulsive deeds in that article, are these animals and racists the 'brothers, husbands, sons' you mean tiggersreturn? Israelis must be so proud of their fine menfolk.

tiggersreturn · 07/08/2014 21:34

If they did then this is horrible behaviour. Some soldiers commit excesses. That doesn't mean all soldiers do. War does not bring out the best in everyone.

saadia · 07/08/2014 21:49

Comparisons between WW2 and the Palestine/Israel conflict are not appropriate, helpful or at all enlightening. Israel is in a far superior position. They have won the war, but for some reason they want to humiliate the Palestinians. The Allies were not in such a strong position. They were fighting to keep Europe civilised and humane. Israel is fighting to expand its territory.

thecatfromjapan · 07/08/2014 22:02

"It's horrible behaviour."

Harsh, tiggersreturn. Very harsh.

With a rhetorical response like that, I think you should consider applying for work writing speeches for our P.M.

tiggersreturn · 07/08/2014 22:04

How is Israel fighting to expand its territory? They withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and have no desire to take it back. It was a nightmare to have when they did have it. They are fighting to live a life of peace not one of spending your days and nights rushing to shelters.

The last time rockets fell in this way on UK territory was in WW2 so yes it is the only feasible comparison to people sitting safely behind their computers.

saadia · 07/08/2014 22:05

Illegal settlements.

tiggersreturn · 07/08/2014 22:12

That's hardly what this has been about.

Nancery · 07/08/2014 22:15

On topic, but not relevant to the current conversation, I've asked a boycott related question in 'chat', if anyone here can help I'd be very grateful (as need to order the shopping by 11.30!)

saadia · 07/08/2014 22:19

tiggersreturn, pick a theory. Is it about gas supplies, is it about derailing emerging Palestinian unity, is it about internal Israeli politics?

Most neutral people do not believe that is is about Hamas and the rockets that Israel is very good at thwarting.

Backinthering · 07/08/2014 22:29

tiggers return Israelis may want a life of peace but if their government did, it would have achieved it by now.

Yruapita · 07/08/2014 22:30

tigger guardian - Levy's unpardonable crime is vocal opposition to the war and to the bombing of Gaza.

There are calls for him to be tried for treason for speaking out against the war. What a great democracy it is.

TheXxed that link is so upsetting. It is vile how Israeli soldiers are generally taught to treat Palestinians.

edamsavestheday · 07/08/2014 22:37

tiggers, please don't compare the Israeli troops murdering Palestinian children to the Battle of Britain pilots. That is a disgraceful comparison. The Battle of Britain was fought in the skies above Britain, by RAF pilots and Nazi pilots. It was not about slaughtering children.

runes · 07/08/2014 22:38

tigger This is an extract from a fascinating interview with a leading US Jewish leader Henry Siegman, he thinks the Israeli gov want all of Palestine.
"Â they are intent on preventing the development of a Palestinian state. To put it bluntly, they want all of it. They want all of Palestine. Now, this is something that Netanyahu said openly and without any reservations when he was not in government. He wrote about it, published a book about it, his opposition to a Palestinian state, that Israel couldnâ??t allow that. The difference between the time that heâ??and he, incidentally, opposed not just Palestinian statehood. He opposed peace agreements with Egypt. He opposed peace agreements with Jordan. Any positive step towards a stabilization and a more peaceful region, Netanyahu has been on record as opposing. And when he came into office as prime minister, he understood that it is not a smart thing to say that Israelâ??s policy is to maintain the occupation permanently. So, the only difference between his positions in the past and the position now is that he pretends that he really would like to see a two-state solution, which, as you know, is the affirmation he made in his so-called Bar-Ilan speech several years ago. And some naive people said, "Ah, you know, redemption is at hand," when, to his own people, he winked and made clear, and as I just read recentlyâ??I didnâ??t know thatâ??that itâ??s on record that his father said, "Of course he didnâ??t mean it. He will attach conditions that will make it impossible." But that was his tactic. His tactic was to say, "We are all in favor of it, but if only we had a Palestinian partner." Now, in fact, theyâ??ve had a Palestinian partner thatâ??s been willing and ableâ??they set up institutions that the World Bank has said are more effective than most states that are members of the U.N. today. And that, of course, made no difference, and continued to say we do not have a partner, because you have nearly two million Palestinians in Gaza who are not represented. So the unity government became a threat to that tactic of pretending to be in support of a Palestinian state."

runes · 07/08/2014 22:43

Henry Siegman interview pt2

tiggersreturn · 07/08/2014 22:44

It takes two to make a peace. It only needs one to attack. It is hard to achieve peace with a counterpart who openly preaches for your death and promises its supporters that their suffering will be worthwhile when every Jew is pushed into the sea.

I have no idea if there was some deep reason for the recent conflict or quite simply an unstable political situation was deeply shaken by the murder of three teenagers on their way home from school and Hamas miscalculated how many rockets they could fire in the heat of summer before they got a major reaction. It could just be that.

Judging by the tone of these threads I don't think anyone is "neutral" if they care enough to post.

Israel has an amazing defence system that protects against the majority of rockets. That doesn't make them harmless and that doesn't take away from the stress of living under them, trying to get your children to nursery and out of baths in the 15 seconds some Israelis in the south have between the siren going off to get to a safe place. this is someone I went to school with and this rocket hit her car with her 2 year old daughter in the back 2 years ago. Miraculously they all got off with minor injuries. That doesn't make the rocket harmless as the pictures clearly show. That makes them lucky.

runes · 07/08/2014 22:45

Henry Siegman interview pt 1

runes · 07/08/2014 22:46

tigger read the Siegman interviews, I'd like to hear what you think about the points he makes.

goldvelvet · 07/08/2014 22:52

Just thought I'd check in to keep this thread as active as possible.

I'm so tired at the moment i've completely lost my appetite and have probably cried every day since I started doing my own research on Gaza, finding these threads etc. But what i'm feeling is absolutely nothing compared to all the people left in a destroyed city, homeless, orphaned, childless, disfigured. The sound of crying must echo in the fallen streets of Gaza.

I'm so determined to do everything in my power to raise awareness boycott, and leave tributes.

Is anyone feeling slightly flat when some of the people around them are showing no interest either way? Comments like it's sad but war happens make my blood boil, or what can you do? (as if nobody ever changed anything ever in the history of time by openly objecting to it) I'm so emotionally invested in the Palestinians. I can't be a spectator in all of this.