Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

My MP I couldnt even send a message, it kept coming back, DC generic reply pah and Hammond, no reply!

Tory. Craig Whittaker (I only found out as I was wanting to write to him!)

Ok call me thick but these tunnels of terror... Best surveillance equipment in the world, total control of the border, superb military equipment, militarised society with conscription. HOW can it seriously be said that there was no way to block or destroy the tunnel openings without bombing schools, hospitals and children miles away from the bloody border?!

Spring heeled, assuming that you are genuinely interested in the answer, and it wasn't just a rhetorical question:

• the artillery and rockets are in response to rocket attacks, not tunnels

Militarily, the tunnels are very challenging. Destroying an opening isn't enough, as it's easy to re-tunnel a new exit -- instead, they need to be destroyed all along their length. They are often highly branched and extensive, and boobytrapped. And openings are incredibly difficult to spot, because they're small and disguised. That constellation of challenges, plus the realisation that the attack tunnel network was extensive was what prompted the ground invasion

Dear Mr Whittaker,
Thank you for your reply to my letter voicing my grave concerns over Israel's recent attack on Gaza.
I fully agree with you that Israel has a right to defend itself, as does any country, but surely you cannot state that you think that Israel's actions, over the previous six years culminating in this recent horrendous onslaught that this is 'defence'?
You point out yourself that they also continue to build settlements with no regard for international law, detain children, and restrict essentials such as food, medicine and fuel into Gaza.
This recent Gaza attack saw the IDF fabricate a story about a kidnap to use as an excuse to obliterate a neighbourhood, killing and wounding many. They have bombed schools and hospitals and, despite their claims that Hamas use people and children as human shields, this has not been witnessed by any press or independent parties.
I am haunted by a photo I have seen of a four year old boy. He lost all his immediate family in an air strike, and has been blinded in both eyes and horribly maimed. If he survives he will be living in, what is frequently described as, an 'open prison' (ie Gaza) and will have limited access to medical care and rehabilitation, and later means to make a living, thanks to 'our good friend Israel.' Even more heartbreaking is that he is probably one of many many more.
Using just this example alone, I am interested to hear your views on why you think simply 'keeping all licence applications' under review is sufficient?
I look forward to hearing from you.

Sorry for getting all worked up. I thought sergeant was saying that in certain conditions it's permissible to bomb children. I would love to hear a clarification that it is never permissible.

I'm not sure how much open space there is in Gaza, but I thought it was a very small area, mostly built up, thus, they have nowhere else to shoot from. Is that right?

And yeah, I feel like we're going round in circles a bit here re Hamas.

I'm going to a protest tomorrow night. I need to do something about this. Going to meet a friend who worked with an aquaponics NGO and inform myself better about the boycott. I'll share all info here.

Love the #letsleepingbabieslie

"Is it ever permissible to bomb children?"

Was WW2 permissible? We bombed a lot of children then

Should we have fought that war in a way that did materially more to minimise child deaths? Surely doing so would have led to more death and destruction, by prolonging the war? It may have also led to losing the war, which would have led to unimaginable horrors for all of Europe.

I am quite aware that ww2 and Israel/Gaza are very different, but the question was asked whether it is ever permissible to bomb children, which requires considering all circumstances.

Re bombing children. Al Jazeera has a list of combat deaths. Most Gazan deaths are not children but men in their twenties. This is important because people seem to believe that most deaths are women and children and that is not true.

www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

samg76 - they're not currently bombing babies asleep in un safe havens and set on a path of ethnic cleansing. that'll do in the world of lesser evils. if you've read the thread you'll know i've spent fair amounts of time living in that region so you'd need to be a bit more nuanced than 'they're monsters cos they're arabic' for me.

homehelp as i'm sure you MUST be aware even if your knowledge is limited to narnia and nanny mcphee there were opportunities to evacuate children in ww1 and II.

I have just read the reply from your MP Nancery, it sounds as though it's been written by 2 different people. Very confused!

FrontierPsychiatrist - Gaza is indeed a very small area and very densely populated. However there is still a lot of open green space and agricultural areas. You can have a look on Google Earth.

There are very very very many places that Hamas could choose to shoot their rockets from. It is an exceptionally important question to ask why they do not.

I recently posted a link from a New Delhi journalist filming a Hamas missile being fired from the middle built up area. It is interesting to see how it was done, with assembly under a gazebo and then the missile being covered with branches, with wires allowing remote detonation.

Apart from being evidence that they shoot from civilian areas, it did make me think that the whole operation could be done discreetly from a piece of open land. They could then fire at their hated enemy without drawing retaliatory fire onto their own people.

Why would you deliberately fire all your weapons from amongst the population? Why would you draw retaliatory fire into the middle of your civilians? Your children? Your grandparents? Why is this their strategy?

HoneyBadger, you appear to be saying that your answer to Hakluyt's question of whether it is ever permissible to bomb children is "yes, so long as there has been an evacuation opportunity, as there was in WW2".

If that is right, then I happen to agree with you that even something as horrible as the bombing of children is not something that is automatically morally never permissible, although I'm not sure I think that an evacuation opportunity is what makes it permissible.

If that is not right, then perhaps you are labouring under the delusion that not many children were not bombed by the Allies in WW2 because there were extensive opportunities to evacuate. I kind of hope that this isn't the case, as it's obviously factually inaccurate.

On the off-chance that you did believe this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

Sargeant, the linked report (hamas rocket fired) was clearly 'alleged' as to the perpetrators. And the identities of those involved was not revealed. Nor was there any contact with any individuals. So it could be argued that this was fabricated evidence.

It also strikes me as very odd, that if this is so typical and frequent, there hasn't been ample footage of this before now.

Just to reiterate, whoever it is, I'm not supporting it. Just evaluating the source.

Incidentally, I wrote to C4 asking for some info on the hamas rocket attacks. Have heard several times of the numbers, but not sure where these data originate - are the reports independently corroborated? They're never officially denied, so possibly so - I'd like to know more.

If you're looking to compare this conflict with WW2 HomeHelp - then I'm very much afraid that it's the IDF that are looking like the nazis, as in the great words of Senator Norris: "Defence Minister Matan Vilnai said they are going to visit the holocaust on the Palestinians - that's nazi talk. I'm not saying that man's a nazi, he's describing himself as a nazi"

Parachuting in again. I've now been told in a very friendly fashion that I'm crossing the wrong people. I'll C&P my posts when I'm on a proper computer. I don't think I'm saying anything too controversial TBH but will consider employing a food taster all the same

no i wasn't saying it's all ok if there's a chance to evacuate i was just saying there's a big difference between the blitz (london was not blockaded, there were opportunities to get your kids out and when the sirens went off there were shelters to go to for example. my point was that gaza cannot even compare.

israel using a 13 year old boy as a human shield

now can you find me proof of Hamas using human shields?

Egypt managed to close all the tunnels by flooding them and cementing them. Without any civilian loss. To say the ground invasion started because of the tunnels is not true. and even if they did then why sniper shoot children and civilians and what of the massacres of people rounded up.in Rafa?

Unwra begged the idf many times for an hour to evacuate buildings but this was denied. Therefore israel specifically targeted women and children. There is no debating this any more. This situation is not comparable to ww1 or ww2 at all because the allies were not targeting civilians in the main.

I'm so angry that 5 threads in we are still fucking debating why it is immoral.illegal unethical bastardly to bomb UN safe houses.

another video showcasing Israeli's using human shields

The ground invasion was part of a larger land grab. Unfortunately they underestimated the fighting capacity of hamas and too many idf casualties ensued.

I see israel has offered a long term truce but no end to the siege bastards. Let's impose the same siege on israel and see if they find it bearable.

It's not remotely comparable to WW2 - for a start, all sides had an army/navy/airforce.

It just shows the sheer desperation people have to justify the IDF's war crimes though.

AndHarry: "Parachuting in again. I've now been told in a very friendly fashion that I'm crossing the wrong people. I'll C&P my posts when I'm on a proper computer. I don't think I'm saying anything too controversial TBH but will consider employing a food taster all the same"

Bloody hell AndHarry, I don't know what to say. That is terrible.

nancery i do not like how the MP started his letter. However, it then goes onto talking about The suffering in Gaza. It sounds like he's put arguments for both sides forward!!! I like your response. Lets see what comes back.