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Part 5: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

999 replies

AndHarry · 04/08/2014 22:41

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Thread 4 - in which Operation Protective Edge was examined further and we looked at the different views from inside Israel and the international community.

Another reminder of the Mumsnet Talk Guidelines.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Yruapita · 06/08/2014 23:25

nancery Looking back through the letter, He talks of the kidnapping of the soldier. Did you only just receive this letter today? If so, then his information is outdated.

somewheresafe · 06/08/2014 23:39

Really depressing to see lots of anti muslim threads floating around mumsnet these days. Many started by new posters. It's really depressing. When did racism become so normal?

somewheresafe · 06/08/2014 23:41

And to me it feels very connected to the whole palestine issue. Does humanity only come in to play when the victims are non muslim?

In all my years at mumsnet I've never felt so surrounded by bigots and racists and so close to deleting my account. This and all the real life self hating jew shit is unbearable. This is the world we are bringing our kids up in. Really?

Yruapita · 06/08/2014 23:55

Please do not become disheartened somewheresafe. The bigots will always find a group to pick on. We must ensure that the marginalised groups have a voice. You have been an inspiration to me. It gives me hope that there are people out there who do believe that humans should be treated as humans and no race should trump another.

we must not lose hope

Springheeled · 07/08/2014 00:01

Totally agree with yruapita not one of us is to give up the argument or the hope because losing either means we lose our own humanity in being defeated by this.

Bollocks to the tunnel bollocks- so the openings are small?! Then only one small person can squeeze out of them at a time, right? So shoot them not sleeping kids. And why the fuck would anyone need a tunnel if they weren't in an inhumane siege? It's all rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

Springheeled · 07/08/2014 00:08

And, nancery give it to your mp both barrells- what a stinking, useless bunch of wimps they are. Useless on Iraq, useless on Palestine- pathetic. What sort of world is it where Baroness Warsi is able to put the rest of them to shame?! Where are the rest? What is Ed Davey on about? Why is he still there clinging by his fingertips to the coat tails of Cameron and co- talk about an exercise in futility.

I've come through anger, despair, reading, learning and what our MPs like to call 'heartbreak' (oh, aren't they good at heartbreak?! I've never heard the word bandied around so often) and now am back to anger.

Which is where I'm going to stay! Because if the pointless, futile slaughter of children doesn't make us angry then what are we even here for?

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 07/08/2014 00:19

My MP wrote that the "situation in gaza is intolerable"

He's a tory MP - they're tolerating it pretty well at the moment. It seems to be intolerable for them to lose revenue from the sale of weapons to Israel. Angry

thecatfromjapan · 07/08/2014 00:35

Goodness. Been out all day and now just catching up with thread.

The demonstration/march on Saturday has an amazing route: starting outside BBC/just off Oxford Street - which is astonishing; US embassy; Hyde Park.

Starting at 12.

There is a lot of opportunity to make a very high-profile protest and even raise some consciousnesses. I was touched in High Street Kensington (near the Israeli Embassy) to see shoppers stopping, listening, taking leaflets, joining in.

There is a massive sense of outrage amongst people. I don't know whether that is heartening or disheartening. It's great when you realise how widespread is the feeling of compassion and humanity; it's devastating when you realise how little difference it seems to make to actual government policy.

Anyway, I'm glad to find you all still here. Much love to all of you.

GoshAnneGorilla · 07/08/2014 02:16

somewhere - please don't go.

These threads have been amazing, I haven't posted on them as much as I wanted to, but it's been great to read so many people from different walks of life, who feel so strongly about this.

OneStepCloser · 07/08/2014 07:19

AndHarry Shock

somewhere let the bigots in MN wash over you my dear, I just don't read them, not interested, I've done my own research and am comfortable in my own beliefs, don't need a load of bias lies to try and change my mind.

There's some lovely posters on here, just don't waste your time with apologists and deniers. Don't forget you don't know a posters agenda on here, different to meeting face to face.

I agree about the other thread, surprised MN have allowed it to stand tbh (actually nothing surprises me anymore)

TheHoneyBadger · 07/08/2014 07:35

don't let them get you down.

you are against the murdering of children. you are a human being. you are capable of knowing a child is a child regardless of it's ethnicity or what side of an artificial border it lives.

people disagree? what a bizarre question in itself - are there people who disagree that it is wrong to murder children? my god, yes it appears there are! there actually are people who think it's ok to bomb a school full of children and that the blame rests with someone other than the person who ordered that the school be bombed knowing it was full of kids? yep.

the world is very divided but to my mind the divisions are not ethnicity, religion, nationality etc the division is between people who know, unquestionably that the above is wrong and inexcusable and people who are willing to see such things done if it serves their, or their 'team's interests.

we know what side of that line we're on and we need to stay in contact with people on this side of the line and make ourselves heard and keep each other sane. if there's a god i don't think god would care whether you called yourself jew, christian, muslim, atheist, whatever - i think he'd care which side of this line you were on.

OneStepCloser · 07/08/2014 07:52

if there's a god i don't think god would care whether you called yourself jew, christian, muslim, atheist, whatever - i think he'd care which side of this line you were on

Absolutely Honeybadger I was taught God is love, and I'll stick with that.

OneStepCloser · 07/08/2014 08:06

However, after saying that I do struggle with any god watching slaughters taking place around this world < ponders>, but that's another thread init.

TheHoneyBadger · 07/08/2014 08:29

if it turned out there was a god and it was a game of team sports style blood bath wars between 'faiths' he was after we probably wouldn't get on anyway.

Nancery · 07/08/2014 08:49

I did a bit of tweaking and proof reading and sent my reply last night. Will post any response!

TheHoneyBadger · 07/08/2014 10:21

it's awfully quiet now isn't it.

horrible awareness that once again it will just sink into the background. news channels have goldfish like attention spans and obviously have more concern for ratings than political justice or such.

we do live in odd times.

i rather wish i did have a faith. when i was managing a project that involved creating a working network with faith and community leaders i was brought back into first hand contact with people for whom their faith was the central aspect of their life. the catholic priest i worked with was very questioning (i was raised as a catholic) and sort of convinced that my moral/spiritual 'who i am' bit would bring me back to the church. the imam who i worked with seemed convinced that my understanding and knowledge of islam would eventually lead me to conversion. the rabbis never fussed - don't think they're really into converts Wink the nicest conversations and explorations i had was with a sikh leader who seemed to 'get' why i didn't feel i could ever affiliate with 'a' religion again and said something lovely along the lines of, 'just be the best muslim and the best christian and the best sikh you can be'. think that will sound odd to most people but it made sense to me.

when religion has so much blood on it's hand thanks to tribalists comandeering it and perverting it i don't find it possible to identify with it. also when you study and travel and live through various religions it begins to feel an odd artificiality to 'pick' a label and run with it and it also begins to feel like the whole thing is such a blumming insult to the concept of 'God' anyway.

this business is nothing to do with religion and certainly nothing to do with god. the sad fact is that tyrants and agenda pushers have always found it convenient to commandeer religion into their cause so as to create that kind of blind tribalism that makes people easier to manipulate and stir up into frenzies and allows you to silence dissenters by accusing them of betraying their religion.

it is cynical and hideous. how unfair on all of the jewish people in the world to exploit a sense of being jewish as a shield to avoid criticism and a weapon to use against dissenters be it a jew (self hating jew) or a non jew (anti semite). if there is a god and there is sin then it will be this abuse of god's name for man's own greedy political and financial aspirations that would surely be the biggest sin? fortunately i don't think amongst the critics of israel outside of the region that it is common to mistake the acts of israel for acts of jewish people - thank god! but they risk that happily and recklessly. the israeli leadership doesn't give a damn what effect they have upon the image of judaism or the perception or treatment of jews internationally. it is such cynical and irresponsible abuse.

if religion is to continue rather than it's long expected demise then i hope it is reclaimed and redeemed by voices of love and reason and compassion who condemn and ostracise those who use it as a weapon.

sorry for long post - i just am pondering all this a lot. my faith or lack of faith is a part of who i am either way. i was raised 'in' religion and listening to the core messages of it and for me what drove me out of it and makes me incapable of return is the hypocrisy and what from the inside perspective i can only describe as blasphemy and idolatry. i don't know what i believe anymore but it is a very strange realisation that the people most determined to be seen as religious are often the people the furthest from the basic dictates and concepts and core values of religion.

thecatfromjapan · 07/08/2014 10:33

I think that if you believe in a free creation, you have to accept that it is people who do this - and perhaps the work of God lies in the ability to see outside of the boundaries and allegiances into which we are born, and to actually feel alongside with those who suffer.

All of those who suffer.

And there are lots of them - at the moment; in the past.

We can give love, fellow-feeling, courage, solidarity, and actual comfort where we can. And those of us who are able to do this, will keep on doing it.

I am feeling quite sick by the rise of "hating" threads, and "hating" propaganda. We have to resist those who would happily divide us, and seek to stop us seeing touching the humanity in all of us. We have to resist falling into the maelstrom of trouble, confusion and anger that makes me people hate.

I do think hope lies not only in recognising our humanity but also in realising that our future lies together, living in harmony on this planet of finite resources. Ands yes, that is an "eco" message. This quest for cheap fuel in a finite world is a disaster. We need a radically different solution and perspective. And I think the sooner we realise our own finitude and live within it, the better.

thecatfromjapan · 07/08/2014 10:34

Sorry. That is a totally bizarre post in the middle of a thread about the conflict in Gaza.

Springheeled · 07/08/2014 10:39

I don't think so- I don't believe in god, but if I did I would believe that his/her most valuable gift to is is the capacity to love, and I think this thread is about love.

Hippy!!!

Springheeled · 07/08/2014 10:39

To us, even!

TheHoneyBadger · 07/08/2014 10:44

i don't think it is a bizarre post. i think this stuff IS spiritual/moral/ecological/ethical/HUGE. and i agree our only 'salvation' is in identifying with humanity and life rather than being divided by tribalism and it's spin.

hence: we are all palestinian.

TheHoneyBadger · 07/08/2014 10:52

i also agree that this is man made. the men making it and declaring it the will of god just adds insult to injury.

i'm no longer a christian but one of the scriptures that always stays with me is when jesus returns and people are being struck down who expected to be saved and seeing people they expected to be saved struck down and the self righteous cannot understand it and are moaning and he says, 'i never knew you'. it sticks with me because it makes so much sense in seeing the barbarities carried out by people claiming to be doing god's will and the reality of 'good' being far less visible and less self important and arrogant than evil.

i also used to take comfort from a part where jesus says i have other flocks to attend to and it's always taken to mean the gentiles but it always read to me as much wider than that re: it's not just about christians or jews or any other badge it's about hearts and humans not badges. i was told i was wrong of course.

i retain faith that there are many, many of us in this world, be us jews, christians, hindus, atheists or jedi knights who have good, honest hearts and know evil when we see it and are willing to speak out against it. i have faith that even if it all went to shit and people were willing to murder each other on sight for tribal badges or religions or nationalities or whatever else they divide us by SOME of us would remain human and retain love and compassion as our guides.

it doesn't mean i think there's some wonderful outcome because there are a fuck load of people that would crush humanity under their heel just to own the last few resources on earth (literally sometimes) and they do have bloody big armies funnily enough. i love the, 'the meek shall inherit the earth', theory but even if i believed in god and the fulfillment of that promise i'd be expecting a fuck load of bloodshed and nuclear fallout first.

alAswad · 07/08/2014 13:53

Please don't be disheartened AndHarry, somewheresafe and the rest - I've been following these threads from the beginning and I don't think I've posted on them before but you've all completely changed my mind about the situation. I started out largely on Israel's side, but having looked at the evidence you've presented here I don't feel I can justify that position anymore. You've even got me taking up my Arabic studies again so I can start reading and watching more first-hand sources, which is quite an achievement Wink In fact I've actually started looking into working with volunteer organisations in Palestine off the back of some of the links posted here. I think what you're doing is great and I admire your stamina!

To the pro-Israel posters (the real ones, anyway!), I appreciate you sharing your opinions too - as mentioned earlier it's not easy to stand up for what you believe in when you're in the minority and I think your contribution is just as essential no matter what side of the debate we're all on.

runes · 07/08/2014 14:38

Not bizarre at all thecat, very well put. I think this thread is heartening, all humanity is not lost

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