Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

i'm not excusing anyone - i'm just acknowledging i cannot know who broke the ceasefire, i cannot know who even agreed to the ceasefire (there's a habit of negotiating things without even involving the actual people involved it seems) and it doesn't seem to matter who broke to me at this point.

israel have made clear they intend to continue this campaign - whether they take a 72hr break or not seems....? and whilst they take their break in a nice comfy prosperous climate with nice fresh water to drink and good meds for the injured and plenty of nice food and safe shelter etc what are palestinian mother's supposed to be doing with this 72hrs?

i'm no longer interested in the see! they're evil and bad they did x. until you stop mass murdering them and justifying it and announcing you intend to carry on doing it everything else seems relatively trivial.

It's hard to find any information on this at the moment and the info I have come across suggests only tank fire was heard. Who has the tanks?

www.breakingnews.com/

Look at the timeframe

Agree with honey.

The narrative absolutely has to begin with ending the illegal occupation of Gaza. It is no longer to cease fire re Protective Edge. There has to be a return to beginning of the injustices. The land grabbing, the euphemistic 'settlers', the illegal occupation, the siege, the brutality.

End the siege. End the occupation.

I'd love to know what Karenins peace looks like, seems to me that it would a lot like 'no Palestinians left that might be opposed to our living in Paradise'.

While Hamas is in charge of Gaza there will never be peace

Don't you realise? Have you not learned? How many intifadas will it take for you to see? If you keep oppressing people, to such an extent that they have absolutely no hope, they will do whatever they can to escape the terrible regime they are being subjected to.

Will you stop when all the Palestinians are wiped out? Then will we have peace? Is that it? And in doing so cometrly and utterly destroy not only the Palestinians, but the land that they are living on, that is under Israeli occupation?

What's the point exactly?

Who is terrorising who here?

How 'terrorised' are the Israelis if they're sunbathing at the beach while Palestinians are being slowly but surely slaughtered, one child, or four, or 17, at a time?

Love that John Prescott spoke out against the Israeli military, comparing the treatment of the Palestinians to the Holocaust. People are waking up. (Don't have time to link, but article was in the Daily Mail, yesterday I think)

KareninsGirl Fri 01-Aug-14 10:04:14
I would ask you not to focus on semantics, but rather the truth
Hamas will never accept peace and their continual breaking of ceasefires should prove that

And I would ask you not to focus on semantics, but rather the truth.

Israel will never return the land it has stolen, and continues to steal, from the Palestinians.

All we can hope for is that instead of keeping the dispossessed people in the world's largest concentration camp, restricting their access to food, fuel and water, and periodically killing and maiming them by the thousand, it might consider a less violent, oppressive and murderous approach.

To understand Isis, this newly created and funded goup in their Toyota MPVs, and the Western backing for the Syrian rebels, you have to listen tp the conspiracy theorists. The BBC won't spell it out. The idea is to create a Sunni/Shia clash which will weaken both.

"Threatening a borderless conflict between "extremist Shi'ites," funded by leadership of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and equally extreme Sunnis— a soft "alliance" between ISIS and al Qaeda— the Israeli prime minister suggested the United States should largely stay out of the fight, and instead allow the parties to weaken one another.

"Don't strengthen either of them. Weaken both," Netanyahu said."

www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Netanyahu-suggests-pinning-ISIS-against-Iran-360183

Perhaps if Hamas had spent less money on building tunnels ($1.6 billion of $2 billion of aid since 2005) & buying weapons to fire at Israelis, then they would be able to feed the people of Gaza, particularly if they had used the funding to improve the infrastructure left by the Israeli settlers when they were evicted by the (Israeli) military. Someone mentioned the UN schools & hospitals destroyed but, of course, without mentioning the fact that these were being used to fire missiles from or hide tunnels under. Even the UN has admitted this happened. Of course, the fact that some of these humanitarian buildings were destroyed by misfired rockets fired by Hamas at Israel is also conveniently forgotten. By the way, throughout this and every other conflict, Israel HAS continued to let food and medicines through to Gaza. Of course supplies will be used quicker if Hamas is deliberately putting civillans in harm's way by hiding behind them to fire rockets and then ordering them not to leave areas where Israel has warned them by leaflet, text, or phonecall, that the area is being targeted. There is also talk here of food calorie shortages. With respect, starving people are not capable of moving through tunnels or firing heavy artiliery rockets or of moving around quickly so it is clear that food available to Gaza is being diverted AWAY from civillans to Hamas members. This could only be done by HAMAS who are the real enemies of the Gazan civillans. It has never been Israel's intention to deliberately harm innocent civillans, only to destroy Hamas, its weapons and its tunnels.

frontierpsych - i don't know if it would stop at the destruction of all palestinians which is part of why in all honesty i can't blame egypt for not wanting to open it's borders seeing as they (read all about it, sinai is unstable, extremists in the north ((let's whip it up as a potential next target)), etc). nor when i see their children fantasising about invading syria or lebanon.

i doubt somehow that a nation so fundamentally arranged around racism and ethnic superiority delusions would stop at one people don't you? and all those weapons still to test and having made near every citizen into a soldier - it would be a shame to waste them wouldn't it? and after all arms development and sales of 'battle tested' weapons is so lucrative.

they won't stop.

and karenin won't be giving us her definition of what it means to be able to live in peace.

jacqui i suggest you look up and learn what a blockade is. you could be sat on a million pounds it wouldn't get you food or building materials my love if you're not allowed to purchase them or bring them in. ffs. wake up. reality isn't half as scary as you'd think even if it does mean a bit of painful eye opening and facing your own fallibiility.

and either israel is a bit thick or your statement 'it doesn't intend to hurt civilians' is bollocks. you don't fire bombs at UN schools and hospitals and playgrounds and beaches in an attempt NOT to hurt civilians.

seriously - join us in sanity. it's not pretty but it's real at least. better than castles made of sand.

I am really shocked by what I am reading here. I don't think people are remembering that Hamas is on a par with Al Quieda, ISIS, Hezbollah.

Hamas is not looking to free Palestine. If they were they would have used the billions of pounds in aid received from UK taxpayers money (not to mention the EU and US) to build a society for the Palestinian people. Not to mention that Israel left every inch of Gaza years ago.

Instead, Hamas used this money to buy weapons, build tunnels from which they could plan attacks on Israelis, and build shelters for their weapons.

Hamas is not letting their people into those shelters. It is purposely firing rockets into Israel (over 2,000) from populated areas. Gaza is not the most populated place in the world - if they had any concern for their own citizens they could find other areas from which to attack Israel. Israeli casualties are a lot lower only because they did spend the millions in aid they received to protect their citizens, by building bomb shelters and the Iron Dome protection system against Hamas rockets (which are sophisticated nowadays, not the firecrackers claimed by some people).

Israel is warning Palestinians before any attack - it has dropped thousands of leaflets into Gaza telling civilians where they will be striking and giving them time to move to other areas. What other army in the world does this? It is Hamas that is preventing its own civilians from leaving the target areas. Have you seen the videos on youtube of Hamas beating their own people with clubs to stop them from escaping?

Hamas' aim is not to lift Israel and Egypt's blockade on Gaza (which was only implemented after Hamas - an internationally recognised terrorist organisation - murdered their Fatah opponents). Hamas' aim is not a Palestinian state. Hamas' aim is in line with all extremist Islamist organisations - an Islamic state.

They won't stop with trying to get rid of the Jews from Israel. They won't stop at conquering the Middle East. They genuinely believe in the doctrine of a global Islamic state, living under Sharia law. All law-abiding, democratic, liberal people should be uniting against this horror.

The pictures of dead children are horrific. They would churn the stomach of any decent person. Israel is at the forefront of the global war on Islamism, and is doing everything in its power and imagination to avoid killing civilians. But ultimately, a lot more children will be killed if Hamas and other Islamists are not stopped.

As Colonel Richard Kemp (who led British troops in Afghanistan) says, 'Israel's is one of the most moral armies in the world.'

Lord Alerdice was on Radio 4 Today's programme about 2 days ago, and he said he has spoken with Hamas and their leader for a number of years and he felt that they wanted to negotiate and that they were looking forward to the unity government and what it might achieve.

Unsurprisingly, the BBC have not put it in its clips from Today.

When John Prescott spoke up the Board of Deputies of British Jews criticised him and his use of the term concentration camps. They were offended.

Well I'm offended that the tried to represent jews in Britain who are aghast at israels actions. We're they not offended at the death of so many children and civilians? At israel committing atrocities in their name ?

And as for the use of the term concentration, I speak having lost ancestors in ww2, there is no group that can claim ownership of this term. Concentration camp originated in Japan when British prisoners were caged and mistreated.

The death count is rising in palestine today. Immensely disappointing. The disproportionate balance of power and weaponry will ensure that Israel will continue with its brutality.

Riiiiiiiight, that old chestnut: Hamas are the real enemies of the Palestinian people.

If only the Palestinians would shut up and die already, then we wouldn't have to kill them. Simples.

Ergo, it's their own fault.

Nice. Basic excusatory logic that allows Israel to continue "defending" itself against an anemic, half-starved population of average 14 years old.

Someone above put it perfectly: Hamas is a symptom of the Israeli occupation.

Can you not see? It won't stop with Hamas, another groups of 'terrorists' will emerge from the Palestinian nation to take their place, to fight for the right to LIVE.

Aha, that's why we kill the little snakes, I hear you say.

A better option, better than slaughtering children in their sleep in UN shelters would be CEASE the occupation, no?

I apologise in advance if I offend anyone with inflammatory speech here, but I'm grossly offended by this conflict.

Also, maybe someone could explain why it's not 'technically' a war? And therefore not subject to laws of war? And therefore Israel is not committing war crimes?

(Dumbface)

somewhere you are right; nobody has exclusive rights to the terms 'concentration camp', 'ghetto' or 'holocaust'. We can see the latter two in evidence in Gaza as we speak, and some would argue evidence of the former as well.
The Palestinians have been demonised by the Israeli govt and by decades of propaganda, and hey are being forced to live like filthy dogs in a ghetto of Israel's own making. John Prescott is right.

Ah, I remember: it's because you cannot wage war against a nation that you are occupying, am I correct?

There is a duty to protect the population of a nation that you govern and occupy.

So, is it not a civil war?

(dumbface again)

The creation of hamas being a direct result of israeli brutality (some even say they were created by mossad to oppose the PLO) was discussed in the second thread.

As for the poster who said starving people wouldn't be able to build tunnels. Well, people were starving to death in the warsaw ghetto but managed to stage an uprising and build crude tunnels. The parallels are unnerving.

Al jazeera today mentioned that Israel is trying to massively overstate the cost of building and the extent of the number of tunnels. I can believe this as Israel has lied throughout this genocide. They claim not to have heard from unwra before the pulverised the school. Chris Gunness of unwra confirmed to sky news he provided israel with the gps location of all the schools 17 times that day and confirmed to Israel there were no weapons in the school. Israel are still 'investigating'.

Once again if we disagree or suspect a poster is not who they apparent to be then report it. Until that time they should be afforded the same courtesy as anyone else!

I am just curious though it was reported that the UN has said rockets were found in a school that was targeted by the IDF.

Can't be propaganda then can it? So Hamas continue to put it's people at risk by it's actions,

I'm flattered donnie - really I am, but nobody is paying me.

And nice style - personal, direct. Charming.