Part 2: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

(972 Posts)
AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 11:50:51

Starting a new thread as the original is almost full.

The original thread is here. It was started on 1st July after three Israeli boys were found murdered, before the murder of the Palestinian boy and the resumption of sustained rocket attacks and Operation Protective edge.

There are lots of excellent posts and links in the original thread showcasing a variety of views. The main consensus was that there is fault on both sides. We also considered various options for people on both sides of the conflict to work towards a lasting peace.

TheHoneyBadger Thu 17-Jul-14 12:24:24

just marking place as i will be going out today and want to read when i get back.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 12:36:38

Thank you for the new thread.

Regarding Netanyahu and his fb page, this is one of the reasons many jews liken him to Hitler who held similar views about the Jewish race. Sadly he is currently unchallengeable with regard to his destruction and degradation of palestinians.

wordsmithsforever Thu 17-Jul-14 12:37:18

Here's the ANC statement - see www.iol.co.za/news/politics/anc-condemns-barbaric-gaza-attacks-1.1717803#.U8ezXU2KBSM.

Just be warned - the comments from my countrymen leave a lot to be desired - plenty of hatred for all sorts of groups but IOL is a fairly mainstream newspaper website. Unfortunately IOL doesn't seem to moderate the comments at all.

wordsmithsforever Thu 17-Jul-14 12:42:23

angry I shouldn't have read the bloody stupid comments - so much hatred! In the first 10 comments or so (I stopped reading!) - hatred for so-called klonkes (ugly term for mixed race people in SA - Jesse Duarte is mixed race), hatred for Arabs, and Holocaust deniers!

On the other hand, if peace can win in South Africa, where you can see the level of stupidity that still exists, there is hope for Israel/Palestine.

donnie Thu 17-Jul-14 13:21:26

Likud: the party founded by a terrorist (Menachim Begin). For anyone in any doubt. The naysayers can read up abut Irgun and Stern, if they so wish.

Someone on the previous thread said that Likud is just Hamas a few decades down the line and they were right.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 20:22:32

I'd like to come back to the thread if we can stay civil and respectful.

halfdrunkcoffee Thu 17-Jul-14 20:35:53

Please come back Quivering; I found your posts interesting and insightful when the first thread was in its early stages (I was just lurking at that point).

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 20:45:02

Thanks HDC.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 21:10:09

Israel has decided to launch its ground attack. This is really bad news. More palestinian deaths and probably some israeli ones too. As I mentioned at the end of the last thread, ground attacks will result in israeli deaths and this will further infuriate bibi and intensify his campaign.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 21:19:32

My heart sank when I read about the ground invasion. It was pretty obvious though that it was going to happen as two of the three demands hamas made wrt a ceasefire were of the PA, not Israel, and that was never going to go anywhere.

AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 21:26:16

Welcome back Quivering.

Please could someone explain to me how the Israeli armed forces are set up? Is there a core of professional soldiers beefed up by the general population on national service? Is everyone a reservist?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 21:36:04

Everyone is drafted. You can object to your draft for various reasons (I did). You do three years service and some stay on as career soldiers (in all sorts of positions, intelligence, legal, medical, anything). And I think although I may be wrong anyone who has already done their service can then be called up at any time as a reservist.

also people who moved to israel too old for national service still do basic training and can then be called up for national service.

Don't quote me on this as I didn't serve and may be wrong.

AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 21:41:37

Ok, thanks. I'll look a bit further into the proportion of career soldiers vs drafts. To me it looks as though part of the problem might be inadequate training in practical application of the international rules of engagement for IDF soldiers.

Philip Hammond was on the news just now giving a far more equivocal statement that than released by David Cameron earlier in the week.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 21:54:40

Absolutely a lot of mistreatment of palestinians by the idf involves stupid, immature 19 year olds.

AndHarry Thu 17-Jul-14 21:59:01

That's certainly my experience of many of the British soldiers I've come into contact with. It's taboo to say so but I can't think that a typical teenager whose previous experience of rifles and artillery is limited to video games has the maturity or judgement to take part in armed service amidst a civilian population. Add the polarized views present in this particular conflict and the high likelihood of repeat exposure to propaganda and you've got one heck of a deadly mix.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 22:13:59

A ground invasion is going to massively increase casualties and is really a step too far. The ceasefire requirements by Hamas didn't seem unreasonable at all: the opening of the rafaa border, the siege to end, access to al aqsa mosque,(shame on you Israel for denying Muslims access to their mosque during ramadan), release of prisoners who were released as part of a prisoner swap and then rearrested by Israel and the promise by Israel not to attack Gaza. Something along those lines.

Why is it that Israel just cannot allow palestinians to live other than caged in a ghetto? And pulverised every few years by experimental weapons?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:19:32

No, they included demands that the PA pay hammas salaries and something else off the pa that I can't remember.

Palestinians have full access to the temple mount from three sides. One side is the western wall which is israeli.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:36:56

I suppose you mean that gazans have no access because al aqsa is in Jerusalem and they have limited access to Jerusalem. The mosque part is a red herring. They want open borders.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:42:15

As do I, I should add, but I also admit that I am scared, absolutely fuckig terrfied because I think open borders at this stage will equal a return to the suicide bombings of the past.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 22:44:50

Fearing a whole race is no reason to keep them caged. There is no justification for barricaded native people into a ghetto.

The only way really to stop suicide bombings is to stop oppressing, and hope that they stop resisting.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 22:45:37

'No, they included demands that the PA pay hammas salaries and something else off the pa that I can't remember.'

Are you saying that the main obstacle to a peace deal and ceasefire that can prevent a ground invasion and teh deaths of hundreds of people is the fact that some Palestinian politicians won't pay Hamas their salaries?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:48:15

I didn't say it was a reason. I said I want open borders.

I said that in tandem with that, I do not 'fear an entire race' I fear a repeat of the previous behaviour of extremists from that group.

Who should die while we hope?

As I pointed out of the previous thread, attacks on jews by arabs started in the 1920s long before there was a zionist state or any occupation

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:50:45

It is a factor that some Hamas demands were of the PA rather than of Israel.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 22:54:43

'It is a factor that some Hamas demands were of the PA rather than of Israel.'

Yes, but how big a factor is it compared to the other points that Hamas wants from Israel?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:58:27

I don't know seeing as I'm not a military analyst. What I can say as a layperson is that when Hamas shoot rockets at Israel and then include a third party, the PA in their ceasefire demands that ceasefire can never happen because Israel cannot possibly fulfill the demands made of a third party. It makes a mockery of the discussions.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 22:59:30

Cleanmean, do you support suicide bombings?

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:01:51

Israel only want a ceasefire on their terms. Everyone knows that. They want no resistance whatsoever and to capture and occupy the west bank without any protest.

Announcing the ground offensive when the news is breaking about the Malaysian flight disaster is also very tactical. Israel thinks it can go in without the world creating a fuss and accusing Israel of war crimes. Bombing from the air, sea and now the ground invasion.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:02:35

I absolutely do not support suicide bombings quivering. Do you support apartheid and murder?

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 23:04:16

' the PA in their ceasefire demands that ceasefire can never happen because Israel cannot possibly fulfill the demands made of a third party'

The PA are funded by outside elements such as the EU etc. They can be pressured to pay salaries and it seems unlikely that foreign powers would allow the fact that they are not paying Hamas's salaries to hold up a deal that may bring peace.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:09:08

The EU will never pay salaries to those still recognised by many countries as a terrorist group.

cleanmean - I've said clearly that I want open borders.
You however class suicide bombings as 'resistance' as you said The only way really to stop suicide bombings is to stop oppressing, and hope that they stop resisting.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:11:04

Suicide bombing is a form of resistance for the palestinians. It is not something I approve of so stop trying to manipulate my words please quivering and stick to defending the oppressors.

Poppet1974 Thu 17-Jul-14 23:13:23

The actions of Israel in Gaza are truely horrifying, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone can try to justify the unjustifiable, the numbers speak for themselves 220 Palestinians dead and 1 Israeli.
A ground offensive tonight too! Not quite enough to terrorise the Palestinians by air and sea!
So, so depressing.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:15:25

I'm not twisting your words. I'm challenging your position. Please can we stay civil because if you and I can't stay civil on the big anonymous internet how on earth do you expect civility ever to reign in the middle east? Cool minds and warm hearts and all that.

Do you think suicide bombings are a legitimate form of resistance.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:19:40

Oh ffs quivering I am not answering your question again. Read my last response. Can you answer my question? Do you support apartheid?

I am baffled that you can challenge me without challenging the actions of israel.

ColgateSmile Thu 17-Jul-14 23:22:56

It is sickening, I will be out this weekend at my third demonstration against what Israel is doing. Going out on demos does not feel like enough but I don't know what else to do on a practical level.

I really do not understand how people can continue to try and justify Israel's actions, the air strikes have killed many civilians including the elderly, disabled, people in hospital and children. The line that Israel is defending itself and that it is actually Hamas that is to blame for using it's people as human shields is wearing thin now. Social media is providing an alternative viewpoint to mainstream news sources and is enabling us to see that Israel is in fact engaging in collective punishment.

I have no doubt that we will look back on this in years to come in the same way that we look back at apartheid in SA.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:26:39

I answered you fully - I explained that I want open borders (that would be 'no' to supporting apartheid) but that at the same time I'm terrified because I think it would be the return of suicide bombings.

You said you do not support suicide bombings but declare them a form of palestinian resistance. I think that position is contradictory - if you don't support hem I don't think you should consider them resistance - they are simply murder.

How do I not challenge Israel's actions? I want open borders. On the previous thread I went into detail condemning israel on various fronts, including outlining the fact that peace will not include a Jewish state but rather one secular state for everyone.

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:27:48

Colgate, I do not think those two (human shields and collective punishment) are mutually exclusive.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 23:32:02

'Human shields'
Do the 'shields' just act as 'shields' willingly?
And if not, how come so many people voted for Hamas, who it is said, use them as 'human shields'?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:38:29

I'm not them and I don't presume to know their struggle. I'm not going to suggest that anyone is willing to be a human shield. I would say that many will be desperate enough to act as a human shield, and many will be influenced by hamas propaganda.

I suggest you do a bit of research on google on how hamas and fatah both behaved in the run up to the election.

cleanmean Thu 17-Jul-14 23:40:25

Human shields and collective punishment are not mutually exclusive? ! The former has become of the excuses Israel uses to bomb children women and the disabled, the latter being a contravention of international law used by Israel to oppress the palestinians.

Whether you like it or not suicide bombings are a form of resistance for the palestinians. If you have issues with this I suggest you speak to Palestinians and their families.

claig Thu 17-Jul-14 23:51:50

Does being a Palestinian 'human shield' prevent hospitals being bombed etc? How effective is a Palestinan 'human shield'?

Quivering Thu 17-Jul-14 23:55:01

Israel is bombing gaza, an urban centre used for rocket launching (contravention of intl law). Their objective is to destroy the military installations (as is their right under international law) but the problem with that is the fact that there is no way to destroy military installations without also killing the people living there. This is called collective punishment (contravention of intl law).

Their solution is to warn civilians beforehand.

Hamas in turn tell people not to flee as they hope that if there are people there, israel will not destroy their military installations. this is called using human shields (contravention of intl law).

They are not mutually exclusive.

Yes of course I have 'issues' with the fact that palestinians use suicide bombs as a form of resistance, because they are used to kill indiscriminately.

justasecond Thu 17-Jul-14 23:56:01

I do not support nor agree with suicide bombing in any way. It is wrong (and also wrong islamically) However I can understand why Palestinians in the desperate situation that they are and against the ruthless might of the Israeli military and their sophisticated weaponry would resort to this. You can only push broken people so far before they do something like that.
Unfortunately these cycles of violence has been going on so long now that both sides have voted in extremes who will never speak to each other and it is the ordinary people who continue to suffer.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 00:01:32

Going to put in my penny worth....

From all the reports/videos/pictures in the media over the past few days all I can determine is that Israel is murdering innocents. They should be ashamed of themselves especially doing this in the holy month of Ramadan. I'm still haunted by the pictures of disabled children's hospital that was bombed! There is no justification for bombing hospitals it's simply murder. How can they justify killing so many children? It's a crime against humanity. To top it all off now the ground offence...

like many people around the world I will be praying for the people of Gaza tonight especially the terrified children (most of whom have lost parents/siblings).

As for Hamas they were elected into power like any other party!

I hope one day the world leaders will wake up and stop the murdering of innocent but unfortunately that day seems very far!!!

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 00:01:56

Quivering that is Israeli propaganda and you know it. Just ask yourself, if you knew a bomb was coming in your house would you stay in there with your dc just because David Cameron or Nick Clegg told you to? Please credit the Palestinians with an iota of intelligence.

Poppet1974 Fri 18-Jul-14 00:01:56

And Israel doesn't kill

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:03:39

Its not propaganda, its in arabic on the hamas interior ministry facebook page. Would you like a link?

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 00:06:57

quivering what use is the warning when the Palestinians have nowhere to go??? As far as I know all the borders are shut confused

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 00:10:14

Oh dear quivering. Suicide bombs kill indiscriminately you say? And ariel bombs don't? You do know that 4 children were killed on a beach yesterday and 3 children from.1 family were killed today whilst feeding pigeons on their roof.

You really cannot comment on palestinian killings on this thread when the body count is currently 227 -1 in favour of israel. And given that israels economy minister Bennett has stated that Israel is moving from 'iron dome to iron fist' there will be many more deaths by the time we wake up in the morning.

Israel obviously used the sham ceasefire to galvanise their ground troops. How many stone throwing kids will the tanks bulldoze tonight do you think?

Poppet1974 Fri 18-Jul-14 00:11:47

Quivering do you have similar 'issues' with the IDF because they kill indiscriminately too?

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 00:18:19

2 civilians already killed by tank fire. One a 5 month old baby. Unbelievable. I am raging at the injustice and I can't sleep.

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 00:21:14

yes pls Quivering, I would be interested to see that as I can see no other source when I google other than right wing pro Israel sites.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:27:13

I have stated unequivocally that the bombing of civilian homes is collective punishment - but they are not bombing them because they want to kill the civilians, they are bombing them to destroy the rocket stoxkpiles and the like and the civilians are seen as collateral. This is immoral.

When suicide bombers blow themselves up on a bus their sole purpose is to kill civilians.There is no other purpose to their actions. This, in my view, is more immoral.

Yes the body count is heavier on the palestinian side and there is currently a brutal ground invasion being carried out. People are dying now, this minute.

But this didn't start now this minute and if we are ever to move on you need to understand the context and that involves discussing the history of the region.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:30:33
cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 00:31:54

I fully understand the history of the region. I have lived there and still have family in Israel. Do you understand the history? Do you understand that Israel stole palestinian land and homes and has been ethnically cleansing the area for decades? And please don't tell me I'm being simplistic. That is the absolute essence of this whole crisis. Israel is illegally occupying that land.

Yruapita Fri 18-Jul-14 00:35:23

IDF statement for ground invasion: BBC.

It said the goal was to "establish a reality in which Israeli residents can live in safety and security without continuous indiscriminate terror, while striking a significant blow to Hamas' terror infrastructure".

-

Is IDF truly speaking for its Israeli residents? How can rockets fired from Palestine which get intercepted by Israel, warrant such a disgusting heavy handed approach? Israel is pretty safe and secure, but they cannot let Palestinians live.

What Israel is doing is inflicting indiscriminate terror. If Hamas is a terrorist group, then what does that make Israel? The world sees Israel as the epitome of a terrorist state

The world used to be shocked by suicide bombing and would find it appalling. Seeing Israel's tactics, the world now sees why someone would blow themselves up.

The might of Israel, with all its heavy artillery and weapons, has never been able to stop the resistance - the Palestinians are justified in fighting back.

Poppet1974 Fri 18-Jul-14 00:35:35

Oh right, got it now!! Palestinian murder is more immoral than Israeli murder! There I was thinking everyone was equal.
I'm off, can't bear the apologists any longer!

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:38:53

I've just been through several pages worth of posts on their page. You will note they update every hour or so.

The post I was referring to was posted on Friday.

They have a gap in their postings now from Wednesday till Tuesday.

You can choose not to believe me but I read the post when it was posted. It appears to hace ben deleted.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:41:41

No , poppet, death as a result of a wider campaign to destroy military installations is less immoral than death for the sake of death.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:42:39

yruptia you cannot dismiss the rockets as 'pretty safe and secure'.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:43:33

cleanmean arabs attacks on jews in israel were taking place before any land was taken.

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 00:43:55

Can you tell me specifically where you are reading that as that facebook page does not seem to have anything more recent than 2013? hmm Also it is for the Palestinian National Authority not Hamas.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:45:39

Erm no there are posts from an hour ago

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 00:46:08

And the facebook gps location put the posters in gaza

Yruapita Fri 18-Jul-14 00:53:01

poppet the Israel apologists they leave a very bad taste in the mouth dont they? Their total disregard for anyone but themselves makes Israel sound pretty much like a dirty word!

quivering tell the facts of your definition of collective punishment to the father whose child had half his head blown off

Tell it to the mother of the 4 children, playing at the beach who Israeli army shot at until they got them.

Tell it to the family of the children who were feeding pigeons on the roof of their home.

Tell it to the 5 month old baby you killed tonight. Say, 'baby, you were killed tonight whilst my country's soldiers were looking for rocket stockpiles and you were just collateral. Had Hamas not thrown rockets, we would not have had to kill you. Its Hamas's fault that we have killed you. '

I am not surprised, that after seeing such atrocities and grief, that the Palestinian people become suicide bombers or human shields.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 01:01:19

Thats a screenshot showing recent posts from gaza justasecond

yruptia as I said before - I am not them. I do not presume to know their struggle. If I was given the opportunity to speak to the bereaved father I would not speak at all. I would cry with him because my words of comfort would be twee and inappropriate. I would hope he could allow me to cry with him.

He, his baby, do not need to hear debate and rhetoric.
That is a luxury reserved for people with a safe roof over their heads and secure internet connection.
That is a lux

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 07:00:51

Quivering how can you keep defending the indefensible when, as we speak, innocents are dying?
I'm also going to a demo on Saturday. Feels nowhere near enough but need to do something to show that that arsehole David Cameron doesn't speak for me.

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 07:08:06

And re the suicide bombs. They are wrong but I understand why they happened. It's an act of supreme desperation.

Springheeled Fri 18-Jul-14 07:12:23

I so wish I could attend the demo at 12 outside Downing Street on Saturday. David Cameron's actions have been repulsive! Every person who attends can show those at home that there is another view to that out forward by the BBC, and give heart to those around the world who condemn the terrorist actions of the Israeli govt.

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 07:19:46

Just saw on the news the ongoing support from the US.
So angry at that, as long ad Israel are allowed to act with impunity they will have no motivation to change their treatment of the Palestinians, and the misery, suffering and death with continue.

Springheeled Fri 18-Jul-14 07:20:37

quivering it amazes me that on the one hand you sound so reasonable and fair and on the other you continue to justify Israel's slaughter. No mean feat! What would it take for you to change your view? If the children on the beach and the children on the roof weren't enough, is the five month old baby?

Even Nick Clegg has spoken out against Israeli actions (a bit) !!!

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 07:22:33

Quivering I hope you never get to speak to the bereaved father. Your faux empathy is sickening. Did you see yet more Israelis cheering last night as Gaza was pulverised?

Yes, yes I know Israel absolutely have no choice but to look for tunnels Hamas use but I can assure you that there are none in the crib of a newborn baby.

If you must apologise for Israel and it's genocide then be prepared to defend it's inhumane actions instead of consistently blaming Hamas and the victims themselves.

Springheeled Fri 18-Jul-14 07:23:02

backinthering who else will test America's latest weaponry? Bone slicing bombs, white phosphorus and the like? America's support for Israel is the whole issue. So much for Obama- what a disappointment he's been overall.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 07:24:51

it's all so awful. that the international community sits by and watches and does nothing - worse than nothing they come out in support of israel - is appalling.

to be in such plight and no one in the world come to your aid must indeed lead to desperation.

i think all the emotion has to be taken out and it has to be dealt with legally. the land is being occupied illegally, the tactics being used are illegal, human rights are being majorly contravened. those are the facts. we have international laws that are being utterly flouted. the focus should be on restoring legal conditions. until that is done israel is essentially committing war crimes, flouting international law and being a rogue state. whatever their agenda for condoning it the international community has to stop and start to apply the law.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 07:27:09

i'm guessing whoever deliberately fired at the four children on the beach is not in a military prison cell now awaiting investigation but getting patted on the back and sent back out to kill some more palestinians.

there were witnesses to that action. for those watching israeli news has it been reported there? have the soldiers in question been arrested?

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 07:34:50

Anyone supporting Israel is complicit in the murders and has blood on their hands. That includes Cameron and Obama. I absolutely cannot understand the viewpoint of any living being who defends Israeli actions, particularly these last few weeks.

How many more innocent refugee lives taken before Israel is satiated?

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 07:37:18

And of it was the Muslims doing what the Israelis are doing they would get called terrorists.

Absolutely disgusting how they are attacking the sick.

I saw a baby beimg pulled out of rubble the other day.

AndHarry Fri 18-Jul-14 07:39:23

Quivering had repeatedly said that the attacks on civilian targets by the IDF are immoral i.e. she agrees with everyone else confused

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 07:46:42

curious as to what has happened to the personnel who killed these children? am i right in thinking in most 'civilised' nations they'd be under investigation right now and off of active duty?

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 07:51:15

Andharry yes she has. But sadly she presents as completely disingenuous by then stating that collective punishment is moral and trying to defend israels actions.

You cannot defend Israel and at the very same time be sympathetic to the civilians being killed. Just as I cannot lambast Israel but blame palestinians for their fate.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 07:57:06

I never said collective punishment is moral.please refer back to my post of 00 27 13 where is said this is immoral

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 07:58:22

Cleanmean they are under investigation.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 07:59:51

Apologies quivering I did misread your post.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 08:14:39

Cleanmean they are under investigation.

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 09:00:33
justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 09:11:30

Obama should be stripped of his Nobel Peace Prize what a completely premature award that was. The politicians are all parroting the same simplistic mantra that Israel has a right to defend itself. Well of course it does. No mention at all why they need to defend themseves in the first place. You simply cannot oppress, occupy, steal natural resources, deny basic human rights and expect no comeback. Why is that so hard to understand?

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 09:29:50

If it was 'so easy to understand' the problem would have been overcome long ago. Maybe it isn't quite as simple as you make it sound.

AnyaKnowIt Fri 18-Jul-14 09:36:00

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 07:08:06
And re the suicide bombs. They are wrong but I understand why they happened. It's an act of supreme desperation.

Do you feel the same for the 7/7 bombing then?

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 09:42:18

no, if israel was held to the same standards of international law as elsewhere it would have ended long ago. if america had ceased funding it's terrorism it would have ended long ago.

it's not complex it's that it has been allowed to act with impunity with full backing financially and morally from the world for decades.

TheTravellingLemon Fri 18-Jul-14 09:42:33

I have read this thread and its predecessor with some interest and the thing that has occurred to me is the basic human need to assign a 'goodie' and 'baddie' in a conflict.

If I believe that the Palestinians are being mistreated, that means that they must be the good ones and Israel's every action is wrong or vice versa.

The thing that is so hard with this situation is that there a about a million different shades of grey. These debates rage back and forth because it is so hard to accept there are no goodies or baddies, just human beings on both sides. Sometimes they don't act like anything we would recognise as human, but then sometimes, neither do any of us.

I understand the need a apportion blame, but in this case I do not think it is helpful. Propaganda on both sides just serves to fuel hatred. Take a look when you go on your marches and see how many banners call for peace in comparison to how many send messages of hate.

sattsumaa Fri 18-Jul-14 09:47:57

I'm sorry Karen but the video u posted is full of inaccuracies. I switched off as I couldn't get past 'myth' no 3......it's untrue that the Jews accepted the UN partition plan of 1947 while the Palestinians rejected it. The truth then as it is now – is that the colonial powers sought to strip the Palestinians of their rights and their homeland without even consulting them....a bit like the 'Egyptian ceasefire' u keep mentioning where Hamas were not even consulted on and was hatched by the US, Netanyahu and Blair.

I'm travelling over 200 miles tomorrow to attend my first ever demonstration to show my solidarity with the innocent victims in this mess - the Palestinians. I'm far from being an activist of any kind believe me, but after what I have seen and read
this week I feel I have to do something.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 09:50:11

Yy travellinglemon.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 09:52:19

Satsumas - there never was a self governed Palestinian state ( that doesn't mean there shouldn't be one in the future) - it was ruled by the turks, then the British.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 09:53:19

Simply put Israel are occupying and degrading palestine. The complexity arises when the world is complicit in the oppression and supports and finances the aggressor.

Lemon - you do not think it's important to apportion blame? Really? Would you feel the same if your children were murdered whilst feeding pigeons, or with their grandmother travelling in a taxi, or if your home was blown up killing 18 members of your family?

Apportioning blame and calling out the wrong party surely is one of the most basic principles of justice. I haven't been on a demo this week, I will be going tmrw, but from the photos and coverage I have seen from people who went they are demanding peace and the basic right to live.

The ferocity of the ground invasion is being played out on twitter and fb. Reports suggest there is indiscriminate firing from tanks, aeroplanes and naval ships. Israel really is there to kill every last palestinian this time.

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 09:54:58

When I went on a march it was all about peace. Peace for palestinians and that the people around the world are praying for the conflict to end.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 09:56:38

No peace for israelis then?

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 10:01:52

Why would I march around for hours for Israeli peace when they are killing so many innocent people?

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 10:03:41

How many Israelis have died so far quivering?

Every single image or news report has shown Israelis sat on beaches, in coffee shops, sitting in spare rooms fully equipped bunkers or cheering on bombs.

I feel for the Israelis who are against the oppression and murder of palestinians. I have no sympathy for those who support and cheer on their troops.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 10:04:00

I would have thought peace in the region needs to involve both israelis and palestinians, unless you hope to either export them en masse or see thrm obliterated in some other way?

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 10:05:31

I don't know anyone cheering.

My sister has no bomb shelter and she has been staying at home.

I think you are seeing some very carefully selected images.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 10:05:50

Quivering, are you being deliberately ironic?

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 10:06:12

If the israelis were bothered about peace then they wouldn't be doing what they are

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 10:16:09

Are any of you interested in understanding the israeli position and thereby being able to move forward to peace?

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 10:18:11

Quivering peace would mean peace for everyone.
To answer Anyas question, no I didn't feel the same way about the 7/7 bombings as the perpetrators lived in the UK and were not subjected to lives of desperation.

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 10:18:58

There are some casualty figures here. As of 17 July, 41 children, 21 women (under age 60) and 14 senior citizens had been killed by Israel.

Cleanmean I also saw an article in the Guardian about a town that has no bomb shelters.

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 10:21:17

Im interested if it helps for peace but lets be honest here. Your going to have a biased view and so are a fewpeople on here.

Also must say I do feel for those israelis who do want peace.

panachronic Fri 18-Jul-14 10:22:02

Ok Quivering. What is the israeli position. If you say, that hamas need to stop firing rockets, can you elaborate on the reasons why hamas are firing rockets into Israel?

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 10:23:51

Quivering how do you feel about the innocent people who have lost their lives? Or the family members who have lost their loved ones?
As a mother myself I cant even begin to imagine the pain they are going through

Ps sorry if that sounds bitchy dont want to come across as that. I just wondered what your views were

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 10:27:25

Yes Quivering pls elaborate on whatyou think Israel really wants

merlincat Fri 18-Jul-14 10:33:37

Could I ask if any of you are planning to join the Stop the War demo outside Downing Street tomorrow?

May I just add something rather controversial to the mix?

Arguably, the Palastinians are being persecuted, oppressed and murdered. They are being told to leave their homes. Their lives. Their families potentially split up if they evacuate. And even if they do evacuate, there is no guarantee of safety.

Let's look at this is simplistic terms - how is this different to the persecution and oppression and murder of Jewish communities in Germany etc?

WW2/ the holocaust occurred not long ago in human history. How can we as a species, 70 years down the line, still be making the same mistakes?

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 10:44:10

I would love to but currently not allowed to travel no further than 20mins from my home due to being on bed rest for premature labour otherwise id be more involved.

TheTravellingLemon Fri 18-Jul-14 10:55:30

Yes, I do think that pointing the finger at one party and saying they are solely to blame is wrong. It fails to take into account the nuances of the situation, of which they are many. It will not help is move towards peace, on the contrary, it only serves to isolate groups on both sides, make dialogue harder a spread racially motivated violence beyond the area itself.

I've seen a video of Israelis cheering rockets being stopped by the iron dome. could this be the video to which you are referring?

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 11:03:53

Lemon I was referring to a photo which went viral last week and more recently news reports and tweets from Diane magney of cnn. Her tweets were deleted a few minutes later.

Lemon do you think the world should have looked at 'the nuances of the situation' in ww2 germany, or south Africa instead of taking action/condemning?

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 11:28:47

Really we should just stand by and let the murders of innocent continue hmm

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 11:32:15

Source if info guardian.com ( I don't know how to link sorry)

Israel last mounted a large-scale invasion of the Gaza Strip during a three-week war in late 2008 and early 2009 that claimed 1,400 Palestinian and 13 Israeli lives.

I wonder what the statistics will be this time moreover how many of those lives will me children???

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 11:57:53

we don't need to 'take sides' or talk goodies and baddies. we have a very simple internationally agreed way to assess this - we have international law and human rights legislation.

it really can be that simple.

what needs to happen for peace? israel needs to follow the law. of course i wish peace for everyone but at the point that one side is brutally trampling all over human rights and flouting international law and committing war crimes on a daily basis clearly that's the first thing that needs addressing.

TheTravellingLemon Fri 18-Jul-14 12:10:14

I wonder why they were deleted a few minutes later. I have seen a lot of videos and pictures go viral that have later transpired to be a misrepresentation at best and, at worst, complete fabrictions. I therefore try to view these things with some degree of skepticism. I thought my response might offer a reasonable explanation.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you want me to say about your second point. if I think that murder factories are wrong then I must agree that all Israelis are monsters?

TheTravellingLemon Fri 18-Jul-14 12:15:17

I completely agree with you honeybadger. if everyone involved followed these laws there would be peace.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 12:38:36

Lemon - not all Israelis support the genocide. I have family in Israel who are in despair about operation protective edge (oh, the absolute irony of that name)

I suppose the point I was trying to make was that although there are always nuances and complexities , sometimes a country will commit crimes so heinous and in such contravention of international law (well put by honey) that as humans we have no option but to condemn. Thank you for your response. I'm genuinely interested in hearing from other people.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 12:48:02

Yes, both sides need to follow intl law. This was established on the first thread.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 12:50:33

I'd like to attend the demo but seeing as it is on our sabbath I can't - I feel this is a shame. Sunday would have allowed more israelis to join in wih peaceful civil protests yet.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 12:53:20

lol sabbath didn't stop them murdering palestinians did it?

we must beware of using the terms jewish and israeli interchangably.

israel does not represent judaism and clearly in no way follows the laws of judaism.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 12:57:35

What does that have to do with anything. Apost asked who's going. I said I can't because I observe the sabbath. This is a shame because there are many other like me.

Please can you treat me like a person. Thank you.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 13:02:05

why would you go? you're happy with what they're doing and see it as self defense right? you haven't condemned what they're doing and have consistently acted as an apologist to their actions. what place would you have at such a demonstration?

i do think the irony of israel trying to call itself a jewish state (as if it represents judaism) whilst breaking every god given law is relevant and the idea that it is ok to murder people on the sabbath but to speak out against murder is wrong is indeed bizarre.

if israel has modeled that it's ok to slaughter innocent children on the sabbath why would it occur to demo organisers that the sabbath is too important to israelis for them to attend a rally to try and save lives?

perhaps you could try seeing all people as 'persons' rather than labeling them human shields or collatoral damage.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 13:02:42

When I say 'like me' I mean israelis, who live in London, and because they are jewish, cannot come to the protest to peacefully object to their gvts actions.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 13:04:12

though i agree holding it on a saturday is a shame for true jews (re: followers of their religion as opposed to just seeing themselves as a superior ethnic group acting collectively in their interests ((re: a class)) and owing nothing to anyone outside of that class).

so yes, it's a shame for jewish people that it is held on a saturday. i think the distinction between 'jewish' and 'israeli' is important so as not to tarnish all jews around the world with israel's behaviour.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 13:04:41

so you do condemn what your government is doing then quivering?

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 13:06:17

that's a simple yes or no question by the way.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 13:07:30

I have done numerous times throughout this thread.

I condemn the actions of hamas too.

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 13:08:02

ohfourfoxache - what's happening in Gaza is terrible, but I don't think comparisons with the Nazis help. There are no gas chambers. People are not being lined up next to huge pits and shot in their thousands.
In Israel, whilst to some extent Arabs are second-class citizens they are not barred (as far as I know) from working in any profession or serving in the Knesset; this was mentioned in the first thread.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 13:08:44

And thank you for gallantry reconsidering your original mockery of me to conclude that yes, it is a shame.

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 13:11:53

I can't go to the demo tomorrow as I have family staying, but I will be interested to see how much coverage it receives. AndHarry, I will try and plagiarise your letter to send to my MP, although I am quite bad at intending to write to MP and not doing so. I also have some family in Israel, though I don't have much contact with them, who do not agree with Israel's actions.

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 18-Jul-14 13:14:52

I understand this is an emotive topic but I don't think it is necessary to harangue those with a different opinion.

I know Eid is fast approaching but does anyone think it would be possible to set up a shoe box appeal for the children of Palestine so they know that the world is thinking of them.

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 13:16:10

wannabestepfordwife - I was wondering if there are any charities I could support that either promote peace or just help improve life in Gaza. I was thinking of donating to the Daughters for Life foundation.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 13:18:15

We are living hand to mouth at the moment and so can't donate, but I'd like to get to know a young palestinian mother interested in peace. If anyone knows how I could go about getting I touch please let me know.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 13:18:19

i said it's a shame for true jews who are against israeli brutality and want to bring an end to this violent regime. i don't think that describes you really does it?

how awful for the genuinely jewish israelis who were against this slaughtering and evil to see it conducted on a sabbath day by a government that calls itself jewish sad

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 13:19:21

TheTravellingLemon I very much agree with your posts.

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 13:23:23

link

Wannabe there are lots of charities currently asking for donations for those affected.
.

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 13:24:20

children's

inknow its not the shoebox thingy but every penny helps in some way.

ilovemonstersInc Fri 18-Jul-14 13:24:32

*I know

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 13:27:01

thehoneybadger hasn't Quivering said she condemns what Israel is doing? It is impossible to get anywhere if we can't attempt to understand more than one point of view. No-one is a warmonger on here.

There are also so many differences in Israel itself; even within the peace camp you get peace-lite kind of people who don't mind the security wall too much so long as it follows the green line, to a few who would support a one-state solution, some who support a two-state solution; there are centrists and extreme right-wingers and so on; there are secular Jews (or atheists who are culturally Jewish) and there are ultra-Orthodox and various people in between.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 13:29:31

Ah but HDC I'm a 'xionist' in honeybadgers opinion (no I'm not) and I'm also not a true jew, she knows about my personal faith you see. I also don't want to come to the demo, or shouldn't want to, I'm not sure.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 13:53:16

though i agree holding it on a saturday is a shame for true jews (re: followers of their religion as opposed to just seeing themselves as a superior ethnic group acting collectively in their interests ((re: a class)) and owing nothing to anyone outside of that class).

HoneyBadger - first, thanks for explaining true Judaism to me. Could you give me a definition of true Buddhism as well? Secondly, it's quite a racist definition, particularly given that even the most orthodox Jews don't believe that they are the only ones going to heaven, in contrast to traditional Christian teachings and many current Islamic interpretations, including in particular those to which Hamas adhere. So Jews don't believe non-believers are going to hell, many Christians and Muslims do believe that, but we're apparently the ones who consider ourselves superior. That's very logical (at least by the standards of most of the posts on this thread).

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 13:59:54

Ok so let me get this straight: a jew who does not attend synagogue every Saturday is not a 'true' jew. And, to top it all, those who aren't by this definition 'true' Jews just think they are superior ethnically.

Hmm.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 14:05:28

Also, Honeybadger seems to be complaining about the Israeli govt not being Jewish enough. Does she think the world needs another fundamentalist state? Most people (but not HB, apparently), think we need fewer.

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 14:08:37

Well quite. Interesting.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 14:13:58

lots of words in my mouth i see.

by true 'jew' i meant someone who actually follows their religion and places god given laws above politics and power. re: against murder, against brutality to ones neighbours, doesn't go round mass murdering on the sabbath day etc.

i didn't call you a non jew btw - the 'doesn't describe you' related to the part where i said 'those who genuinely want to see an end to this violent regime'. i meant those who wouldn't dream of justifying mass murder as 'self defense'.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 14:15:23

and i have not in any way slated judaism other than to say that zionism and this brutal israeli regime does NOT represent or adhere to judaism. as agree by thousands of jews in this country and beyond who are speaking out against it.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 14:16:41

Doth protest too much, etc.

TheHoneyBadger Fri 18-Jul-14 14:16:48

and no she hasn't said she condemns it - some side steppy nearly but not really statements about i wish there could be peace etc but no outright 'what israel is doing this week is absolutely, inexcusably wrong'. and yes, i'd find that hard to square with a person claiming to be a follower of god, whichever badge they wore.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 14:24:23

Honeybadge - you've quite clearly said that Jews think of themselves as a superior ethnic group and act collectively in their own interest. That sounds like slating Judaism to me. For a start, Jews rarely agree on anything, let alone acting collectively.

As for condemnation, it's difficult to condemn "everything Israel does in a week", as this would include running buses and sewage works, cleaning the streets, treating patients in hospital etc. And some of thing Israel did were clearly right, like using the iron dome, protecting its civilians from being massacred by fighters coming out of a tunnel to massacre kibbutz members, etc....

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 14:28:27

er actuallly HB did not say that. I can read.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 14:29:10

Sam honey has not said that. She said the opposite if you read her post properly.

This is not about religion. Can people who want to argue about religion please go read the first thread where we all agreed (kind of) that this wasn't a jew v muslim war.

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 14:31:20

And let's not forget the world leading cancer and Alzheimer's research, plus 1 in 4 drugs supplied to the NHS and worldwide.

No, Israel certainly cannot be condemned at every angle can it?

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 14:33:28

I think that stating that a non-practicing Jew isn't a 'true' Jew and that they are in fact thinking of themselves as ethnically superior, does make it about religion though, doesn't it?

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 14:33:48

Sam she's saying that stuff about zionism not Judaism.
For the record: I unequivocally condemn the use of heavy weaponry on civilian targets.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 14:35:04

As for supporters of israels massacre attending a demo to free Gaza. ..well I have no words.

Israel created a sham ceasefire to galvanise ground troops so that it could obliterate the few remaining palestinians it has not yet reached. If this isn't akin to a holocaust I don't know what is. As I write the palestinians are being pounded on the ground, by air, by sea. Ok so they are not being lined up and shot but they are being mercilessly killed, men women and kids. No one can accuse Israel of discrimination. Everyone in that tiny strip of land is fair game. Israel have obviously decided to go for mass murder whilst the world is busy trying to deal with the Malaysian flight disaster.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 14:35:14

No she's saying religious people shouldn't use military warfare on the sabbath.

I'll be expecting no rockets then, as its friday today.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 14:39:30
KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 14:42:27

A ground offensive was imminent before the MH17 tragedy.

And for the record, no I do not agree with murder of anyone, whatever religion, shape, colour size or ethnicity they are. I do think Israelis should be able to live without having rockets raining down on their heads (if it wasn't for iron dome, goodness knows how many innocent Israelis would have died).

I want there to be a peaceful way forward. But having Hamas as 'peace partners' makes things very difficult indeed.

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 14:43:50

Cleanmean, funny he didn't mention the stockpiles of rockets in peoples homes.

20 were found in a unwra school.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 14:49:17

Quivering - I didn't see a single reference to Zionism in what HB wrote on that post. And how could Zionists consider themselves an ethnic group, as there are and always were loads of Christian and other non-Jewish Zionists? Good point about Hamas firing on a Friday, though. perhaps we should have a thread on whether they are true Muslims.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 14:50:51

You omitted to mention the school was vacant and had been for some time.

Did you also read that the unwra has condemned and criticised Israel for its bombardment or is that unlikely to be mentioned in the Israel Times?

Glad the irony of the article was not lost on you quivering.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 14:50:53

Are people really defending mass killing by IDF by saying they supply drugs to the rest of the world & are leading researchers? So by that notion anyone can commit crimes as long as they balance it by doing something good hmm

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 15:30:41

No, I just cannot condemn Israel for everything it does. It does a lot of good in the world.

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 15:46:40

did somebody ask you to "condemn Israel for everything it does?"

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 15:54:45

From The HB

but no outright 'what israel is doing this week is absolutely, inexcusably wrong.

This seems to be asking us to condemn everything Israel is doing, including, for example, operating the iron dome. Maybe Israel should turn off the iron dome for a few hours so there are more Israeli casualties and the killing then looks more proportionate.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 15:59:07

Nhing Israel does could make them appear to be acting proportionately. No one wants innocent israeli civilian deaths.

HB was referring to the actions of israel in attacking gaza and you know that Sam.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 16:02:49

cleanmean - so the Israelis should just have sat back and let Hamas test out their new Iranian missiles on Israeli cities until they got bored of it?

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 16:05:51

Sam

do you take the view that killing 200 people will reduce anti-Israel feelings, and, later, action?

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 16:07:19

Remind me again how many Israelis have died this week courtesy of hamas firing 'new Iranian missiles' Sam.

And then please comment on reports that Israel has been using illegal experimental bombs on palestinian civilians. 23 palestinians killed today I think k amd the never risinrisinsiles

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 16:07:57

Sorry , should say and the number rising.

Wannabestepfordwife Fri 18-Jul-14 16:13:44

Thank you for the link ilovemonstersinc have made a donation

AndHarry Fri 18-Jul-14 16:14:55

TheHoneyBadger I've reported your post about 'true Jews' because it really does read very badly and I can see why other posters have reacted as they have. I don't think that was your intention.

I think it's perfectly possible to disagree vehemently with Israel bombing civilian targets in Gaza while also exploring the reasons behind the campaign. After all, it seems to make sense to most world leaders! It wouldn't be a terribly useful discussion if we didn't have a range of opinions. I took quite a battering on the first few pages of the original thread but in a challengingly thought-provoking way rather than a personal way.

halfdrunkcoffee to an extent the numbers of civilians being killed and the method of killing is irrelevant. The fact is that innocent people are being murdered.

That is (or at least damn well should be) unacceptable.

I cannot for the life of me understand how one of the greatest tragedies in human history cannot be learned from, and we have consistently experienced murder of innocents in the last 70 years. Not just in Palestine/Israel, but all over the world.

I suppose I just despair of humans, particularly when there is such widespread celebration when people are dying needlessly sad

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 16:21:36

PJ - the problem with dealing with Hamas is that for them, everything is a victory, especially for the leaders who are safely ensconced in the UAE or deep underground in tunnels, while telling the population that they (the leaders) are beside them.

EG

no invasion - victory! shows Israelis are cowards and afraid of the gallant hamas
invasion -victory! shows Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongers
Few Israeli casulaties - victory! shows how disproportionate the loss of life is
Heavy Israeli casualties - victory! next stop Tel Aviv - Israelis are losing heart
heavy Arab casualties - victory! more future hatred and more martyrs
few Arab casualties - victory! shows that Israel is losing its deterrence
Hamas attempt o massacre kibbutzniks fails - victory! - the tunnels mean no Israeli will ever be safe.

As everything is a victory for Hamas, good or bad, it seems a bit pointless to decide what to do based on how hamas will call it. maybe the citizens will get a bit sick of their absent leaders calling on them to make sacrifices....

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 16:24:43

regardless of your opinion on Hamas, or their predecessors or future successors, do you take the view that killing 200 people will reduce anti-Israel feelings, and, later, action?

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 16:26:48

cleanmean -very few casualties, due to the iron dome. But not for want of trying. Would you be happier if it were turned off? Both sides are reckless as to civilian casualties, but at least with the Israelis it is not their official policy.

Can I just ask, if all politics and the Israeli government and Hamas were out of the picture, do you think that ordinary Israelis and Palestinians could live peacefully?

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 16:29:46

I would certainly like that to be the case.

BUT as I've said before on these threads, arabs were killing jews in what was then Palestine long before there was any state or land taken. So ot would take a huge amount of work on both sounds to move past that.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 16:30:28

PJ - I think that nothing succeeds like success, and the boost to Hamas for rocketing Israel for 10 days without any response would be greater than the boost from the deaths. As explained above, any action is treated by Hamas as a victory (including its failure to perpetrate the kibbutz massacre yesterday).

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 16:32:33

Sam - you cannot seriously be telling us that it is not israels policy to kill civilians?

I think the whole world has seen this week that it is exactly what israels policy is. Can you for one moment see past the Hamas hatred and muster just one ounce of feeling for the thousands of palestinians Israel have devastated this week?

And will you ever answer PJ'S question?

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 16:33:04

If I understand you correctly, your answer to my question is that killing 200 people will reduce anti-Israel feelings, and, later, action, because the friends, neighbours and relations of those who died will not resent and hate Israel, and will be filled with feelings of friendship and peace.

Have I understood you correctly?

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 16:52:45

I have answered PJ. There will be more ant-Israel hatred, but if the Israelis had done nothing, Hamas would have been hailed as heroes throughout the Arab world for being able to rocket Israel without any response, anti-Israel hatred would have increased even more, and at some point the Israelis would have had to do something.

I don't think the Israelis wanted to invade Gaza, hence the ceasefire offer. The misguided people on the "stop the war" this weekend should really be demonstrating against Hamas, who refused the ceasefire, but of course they won't be.

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 16:57:52

If I understand you correctly, your answer to my question is that killing 200 people will reduce anti-Israel feelings, and, later, action, because the friends, neighbours and relations of those who died will not resent and hate Israel, and will be filled with feelings of friendship and peace.

Have I understood you correctly?

You have, of course, the option of saying that killing 200 people will not reduce anti-Israel feelings, if that is what seems to you to be more probable, but I can see that this is a question which you find very awkward.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 16:58:54

Have you read the news properly? There was no ceasefire 'offered' Hamas were never even consulted. Israel spoke to their ally Egypt and put together a list of demands. Then carried on bombing innocent children.

Calling millions of demonstrators across the world misguided is really disturbing Sam. Perhaps you think we should all be in favour of palestinian civilians being obliterated?

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 17:08:59

cleanmean - I think you'll find Israel did stop firing for 5 hours, and Hamas then started up again. It was Hamas who put together demands, including a deliberately ridiculous one that the Gazans should be able to go to Jlem, ie an open border with Israel. Note that their Arab neighbours Egypt don;t seem keen on an open border - I wonder why?

It's all very well to ask what is the benefit to Israel, but what is the benefit to Hamas of sending up rockets at civilians that will almost certainly be shot down, and if not will no doubt kill indiscriminately? And won't it increase the Israelis' hatred of the Palestinians? .

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 17:15:45

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 17:16:27

Protestors not protectors.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 17:43:58

Cleanmean - a very ineffective genocide, if it is - Palestinian population increase has been among the highest in the world. there are 20 times the number of residents in Gaza as there were in 1947. the Israelis also set up the university and built the main hospital, which would be odd if the intention was to commit genocide. Are the Israelis the world's most incompetent ethnic cleansers?

The demonstrators in Tel Aviv are great - if I were Israeli I may well be there, but the difference is that they have skin in the game, so if they say they'd like to live under rocket fire, they can, and they will suffer the consequences. That's completely different from the UK demonstrators....

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 17:46:17

genocide and ethic cleansing are not at all the same thing.

Annexing and occupying territory are Israel's preferred tools.

there are 20 times the number of residents in Gaza as there were in 1947

Excuse my ignorance, but is this perhaps because Palestinians have been forced out of such a huge area of Palestine?

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 17:51:46

So, since 1948, numbers of Palestinians have grown exponentially. By contrast, there are no virtually no Jews left in any Arab country. But it's the Israelis who are ethnic cleansing???

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 17:56:10

I think many refugees went there in 1948 but there is also a lot if population growth as the birth rate is very high.

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 17:57:20

O4FA - no, I think it's having one of the highest fertility rates in the world - still over 5 per woman (shudders...).

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 17:59:20

Why are you shuddering Sam? The thought of those awful Palestinians breeding?
Never mind eh, a few less babies and children to worry about now.

Er, and he shudders are - why exactly?

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 18:03:05

No, I was shuddering at the idea of having 5 kids myself!

SamG76 Fri 18-Jul-14 18:07:39

In the same way, I might shudder at the idea of multiple wives. That's not to say they shouldn't do it in the islamic world, and it was permitted among some Jews until about 1000 years ago, but I wouldn't want to be one of 3, and I don't think DH would cope, either.

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 18:10:24

I think she is shuddering at the thought of having at least 5 kids!

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 18:10:24

Given that many people on this thread are commenting as they are appalled at the number of children being killed by Israel, I find your 'shudder' comment to be in very poor taste.

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 18:13:38

What has multiple wives got to do with anything? is that the only other thing you would shudder at? I shudder at murder of children killed while they are playing.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 18:15:17

I agree with backinthering

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 18:18:47

I agree sam that was in poor taste. There is no room for flippancy at this time.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=926906097335053&id=100000470147511&_rdr

Demonstrators in Berlin chant "Jude, Jude, feiges Schwein, komm heraus und kämpf allein".

Israel has a victim complex for a reason.

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 18:18:53

Ok it may have been a poor choice of words but dontvlet that detract from the rest of what Sam has said.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 18:19:41

As for mis guided demonstrators then I'm proud to say I'm a Londoner & will be one of those mis guided people out there. I have faith the number of people standing up for human beings will out way the ignorant!

KareninsGirl Fri 18-Jul-14 18:22:16

Quivering sad

Quivering Fri 18-Jul-14 18:22:28

I hope we can agree that the demonstrators in berlin were misguided?

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 18:24:31

Quivering yes agree that was appalling. It also completely negates the point of the protests.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 18:28:27

quivering yes agreed that is not the purpose of the protest this protest.

Pulledapart Fri 18-Jul-14 18:29:13

Weekend* that was meant to say!

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 18:50:11

Again apologies for the Daily Mail link, but these pictures do show the human cost of what is happening:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697019/Israeli-soldier-dies-overnight-Gaza-ground-offensive-Palestinian-death-toll-rises-260.html

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 18:52:30

I'll be attending the demonstration in Glasgow tomorrow.

wordsmithsforever Fri 18-Jul-14 18:54:10

Quivering - what does that actually mean? (It sounds nasty.)

Having said that, we shouldn't play into the hands of extremists who spout ugly stuff. Here in South Africa, you don't have to go far to find a black leader leading a chant at a rally of "Kill the boers! Kill the whites!" (usually to cover his own corruption or incompetence) and if you look on the Internet (indeed on that fairly normal IOL newspaper website I linked to above) you will find the ugliest racist stuff - I'm taking really nasty stuff - comparing black South Africans to baboons and disgusting things like that.

But please don't rise to it. I suspect peace will have to be found at a grassroots level for Israel/Palestine or at least start there. We were lucky to have FW de Klerk and Nelson Mandela. I'm not sure the Hamas and the Israeli leadership can be trusted to the same extent (although having said that it's easy to say FW and Mandela were so great in retrospect - I can remember loathing FW when he first came in and being genuinely amazed at what he did and Mandela was regarded as a terrorist by huge numbers of white people).

In the absence of decent leadership it will be up to people at grassroots level to find peace. There is a lot ordinary people can do. See for example jewishvoiceforpeace.org/toolkit.

And no I don't trust the Hamas leadership at all. And I don't trust the Israeli right wing - which it seems to me is basically the government at the moment? But the trouble is if we rely on them to find peace we're stuffed. A lot of change in SA came from ordinary people marching (or toy-toying in our case!) and for that reason I really support the protests and think they're important. I don't know what else to do as the leaders aren't listening to anyone.

wordsmithsforever Fri 18-Jul-14 19:03:49

Actually Quivering don't worry to translate - why give such ugly words oxygen. sad angry

justasecond Fri 18-Jul-14 19:15:02

That is awful Quivering. I am not sure what it means either but I can imagine. Unfortunately there are idiots filled with hate out there who will latch on to this for their own ends. I wish they would stay away from demonstrations as it distracts from the real issues

halfdrunkcoffee Fri 18-Jul-14 19:35:29

There is a translation on the Facebook page.

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 19:41:49

Apparently left-wing Israelis being attacked and beaten in Tel Aviv, with one being hospitalised.

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 19:48:11
wordsmithsforever Fri 18-Jul-14 20:07:10

That is awful Backinthering. I also read about ordinary Arabs being attacked in Jerusalem. Mobs in - see jewishvoiceforpeace.org/blog/we-oppose-the-privileging-of-jewish-lives-over-other-lives.

I quote from that article, "Mobs in the street chanting "death to Arabs" and pulling out Palestinian men from their stores to beat them as other Israelis stood idly by."

On a personal level I am disturbed to see some support on facebook from people I vaguely know - bible-believing Christians who seem to support expansion of Israel into the West Bank and Gaza - and this crushing military campaign - because it's "bible-based". It is extremely odd and sad that all these deaths are apparently ok if it's part of God's plan.

Those Daily Mail pictures are heartbreaking - including that beautiful Israeli boy (and let's face when you're my age you realise that 20 years old is just a baby) who died. So sad that his parents have been manipulated into probably believing that this was only the way. That their son had no choice.

There's a song from the anti-apartheid struggle which urged white South African to stop and listen to the sounds coming from the township. The lyrics of the song say, "It wasn't roaring - it was weeping."

We were told to beware of the evil blacks and taught to fear them but in fact the truth was they were being oppressed and their communities devastated. But we were told that they weren't like us so it didn't matter. They apparently didn't care if their families were killed. (Why else would they protest on the streets like that with their kids and put their kids in danger?) This song urged white South Africans to listen to the sound from the townships and explained it wasn't war-like roaring - it was weeping. Always made me cry. See www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdyu_jcLYW8&list=PLlK6twzBD6TBXFUQHwpp1Xx67K56KBxkW

It was censored because the band (reluctant conscripts into the apartheid army) sneaked in Nkosi Sikele (now our national anthem smile)

Take a look at the lyrics - Israelis are being conned in exactly the same way - see www.weeping.info/Weeping-lyrics.html.

wordsmithsforever Fri 18-Jul-14 20:12:03

Just realised, for the first time, that judging by the surnames, the band Bright Blue was made up - not just of white South African boys - but white Jewish South African boys.smile

Backinthering Fri 18-Jul-14 20:17:59

Wordsmith I've been reading your posts with special interest as I'm from Southern Africa as well, and you point out the parallels between apartheid and the current Israeli situation so eloquently.
I haven't heard that song for years, it's made me cry.

wordsmithsforever Fri 18-Jul-14 20:46:33

I know Backinthering - I don't think it's possible to be from our part of the world and get through that song without sniffling! I was trying to be a bit hard saying it used to make me cry - it doesn't now - oh no, not at all! <Sniff!> But at least now it's quite a happy weep that much of the crap (not all - let's be realistic) is behind SA. Let's hope for the same for the Israel/Palestine.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 21:14:03

Word the lyrics are very poignant and moving. Thank you for sharing.

Regarding sams point about there being no jews in Arab countries, I suspect this may because many of them will have chosen to move to Israel. Also as Israel increased its attacks and land grabbing the anti Jewish feeling in the Arab world caused tensions which may have prompted jews to leave Arab countries. Having said that, historically jews have lived peacefully amongst Arabs for centuries. The worst persecution they have faced has always been among Europeans.

It's heartbreaking to see the palestinians living under occupation where they can be executed without trial en masse and where they have no legal recourse. Add to that the sanctions, the destruction of infrastructure and essential health services, poverty and psychological trauma. How anyone can defend an illegal occupation like this I do not know.

cleanmean Fri 18-Jul-14 23:17:49

Jews Against Genocide have very poignantly held a memorial service for murdered palestinian children outside the israeli embassy in tel aviv and around the world.

It's wonderful to hear about news like this. And highlights the importance of acknowledging that not everyone in Israel supports what the government and IDF are doing.

PigletJohn Fri 18-Jul-14 23:44:40

Sam "demands, including a deliberately ridiculous one that the Gazans should be able to go to Jlem"

From Sam's perspective, it is ridiculous that some Palestinians should be permitted to go to one of their towns which has been occupied and annexed by a foreign power.

Jews Against Genocide should be applauded for making a very moving stand.

cleanmean Sat 19-Jul-14 08:04:08

Death count close to 310 now. Seems Israel is intent on rocketing up the body count.

As tariq khdeir, the American palestinian who was attacked when his cousin was burned alive, left Gaza to return to America the IDF ransacked his home and arrested his cousins and uncles. No evidence, no charges just arrests.

Thank god for the protests worldwide which are ongoing. Shame on France for banning pro palestine marches.

Another story to bring light into this darkest of stories is the one of Dr gilbert from Norway who once again has dropped everything to travel to Gaza and operate on the casualties and condemn the actions of israel.

I wonder how many more palestinians lives Israel will take before its thirst for blood is satiated? And it has yet to find even a single tunnel of the hundreds it went in to find. Evil despicable merciless regime.

cleanmean Sat 19-Jul-14 08:08:40

Piglet John - the Israel apologists find it ridiculous that palestinians want to return to THEIR homes, to be free, to want their children to live, to want sanitation, water, hospitals and life saving treatment, food etc.

There are reports from.al jazeera that the air force is now targeting ambulances carrying casualties and hospitals to ensure they finish off the work of the ground troops. Quite a tag team of ground attack, air attacks and bombs by sea. Bravo Israel, let all the despots and murderers around the world look to you to learn how to pulverised a nation to death.

TheXxed Sat 19-Jul-14 08:12:19

Hello All

Does anyone know the details of the next pro Palestine march in London?

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 08:12:44

Israel's actions make sense if you believe that killing people will make their friends, family and neighbours become friendly and peacable.

If, however, you believe that killing people, bulldozing their family olive and vine groves, blowing up their homes, dispossessing them, annexing their land or breaking their legs by dropping boulders on them, are all actions likely to create resentment and hatred, leading to future violence, then they are insane.

cleanmean Sat 19-Jul-14 08:28:09

Piglet this point was raised in the first thread. Why is Israel doing everything it can to make the world despise it? The answer seemed to be that given the financial and moral support it receives from world leaders it has no need for support from people.

In its bloodiest day yet Israel killed 12 children yesterday.

There is a demo at downing street today from 12 pm.

TheXxed Sat 19-Jul-14 08:31:07
TheXxed Sat 19-Jul-14 08:33:25

Thank you piglet

TheXxed Sat 19-Jul-14 08:33:57

I mean cleanmean.

Sorry to early for me.

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 09:02:19

All these little lights of hope are the key to challenging the hatred (on both sides) and on a practical level stopping the deaths. The memorial service is great to hear about.

Quivering your plan: "I'd like to get to know a young palestinian mother interested in peace. If anyone knows how I could go about getting I touch please let me know."

Such a great idea. Why don't you get in touch with someone at jewishvoiceforpeace.org/ and maybe they could help.

If every single Israeli and Palestinian could link up in this way, it would be very difficult to continue the killing. It's only when suffering has a human face that people understand what it really is. Leaders love to build on fear of the other group - and I'm saying this happens for sure on both sides of the Israeli-Palestine divide.

I don't believe any group of human beings is inherently evil. That's why if you want to convince one group to kill another group, you have to convince your electorate that they need to be fearful - that way they'll be able to stomach the killings.

Suggestions like yours, Quivering, can cut to the very chase of this because when ordinary people get to know one another they will realise that we are all just human beings - not terrorists and soldiers.

halfdrunkcoffee Sat 19-Jul-14 09:21:21

There's also Seeds of Peace. They might have some alumni who are now mothers.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 09:23:37

someone said: Jews think of themselves as a superior ethnic group and act collectively in their own interest. That sounds like slating Judaism to me.

no. i'm saying that in israel jews are treated as a class - as in they have legal rights, privileges and freedoms that others do not have. much like whites in south africa were a class. i'm talking about an apartheid system whereby if you have the right badge (in israels case being an ethnic jew, in s.africa's case being white) you have freedom and the protection of the law and privileges of that class, whereas if you are not of that badge you do not.

i'm giving the benefit of the doubt here that you didn't just deliberately lie and twist what i said. and the sabbath business was mentioned because israel calls itself a jewish state but does not follow jewish law. this is not about 'jewish people' or even all israelis but about the state and it's actions and the people who support it's actions.

i couldn't have made it clearer throughout this thread that this is not about judaism for me and ive made several links to jewish groups against israel's regime.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 09:26:13

and it's not, 'if you're a non practicing jew you're not a true jew', but i do struggle to think that if you do not follow the most fundamental laws of a religion or believe in the importance of them it's hard to call yourself by that religions name.

i'm talking orthodox or reformist or goes to synagogue or not here - i'm talking gun ho slaughtering of women and children or not.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 09:32:11

sorry that should say i'm NOT talking about orthodox or not.

oh and i've just remembered the other snark about hamas won't fire on friday - i haven't brushed up on the finer details of islamic law regarding friday. it never seemed as strict as the jewish sabbath, mostly just meant all the shops were shut for a couple of hours in the afternoon whilst people went to mosque but things resumed after. i don't think it is required to put off all activity in the same way as in islam, much as christians don't commonly see it as more than a day to go to church.

the sabbath as a holy requirement is most emphasised in judaism. it was part of a very special contract between god and his 'chosen people' and there were very clear instructions for it's observance.

so oranges and apples iyswim.

cleanmean Sat 19-Jul-14 10:14:07

Quivering - regarding your wish to meet a 'young Palestinian mother' who wants peace, I think you would radically have to alter your mindset before doing this. From reading your posts it is clear that you support Israel and it's self proclaimed 'self defence' although I note that you are appalled at the palestinian deaths.

If I was a palestinian mother I would find it very difficult to have someone sympathetic with the regime try and reach out and offer condolences. I am not saying this to upset you, in the past I have been involved with initiatives which bring jews and palestinians together and campaign for the freedom in Palestine. From experience these initiatives worked best when it involved people on both sides who genuinely wanted freedom for palestine and peace in the region. It would not work if you insist on being an apologist and in favour of restrictions and sanctions against those palestinian mothers you want to reach out to .

The sentiment is great and I wish you well but I hope you will consider that peace can only be achieved when palestinians have freedom equality and basic human rights.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 10:24:15

i would say a good starting point would be to go visit palestinian areas. did you watch the series of four videos called, 'home front', that someone linked to here? that is a good one to watch to get a sense of the process of finding out more and going beyond the propaganda in small steps.

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 10:58:57

Here is the link again to the 4 Home Front videos - see www.justvision.org/homefront

halfdrunkcoffee Sat 19-Jul-14 11:08:49

cleanmean: if only the people who are on the same page to begin with meet will that help change things? Would it be a case of preaching to the converted? It could be that people might change their views only after meeting someone from the "other side". We are talking here about two moderate people meeting, not two extreme right-wingers. Having said that, there is a group called Combatants for Peace and surely if they can talk or meet anyone can?

thehoneybadger I think Israelis (unless they also hold another passport) are restricted in which areas in the West Bank they can visit - it's divided into zones and Israelis can't go into Zone A - or something like that; I can't remember exactly - so that may be easier said than done. Ironically it is often the settlers in the West Bank who have more contact with Palestinians than do ordinary Israelis. (Ordinary Israelis may have Israeli Arab friends but are less likely to know people in the West Bank or Gaza I think).

cleanmean Sat 19-Jul-14 11:22:36

Forgive me but I don't think someone who aligns themselves with the israeli army is moderate.

I agree that it would be useful to have people from different sides meeting, but from experience and especially given the current genocide now would not be the right time to reach out to Palestinians unless you understood their fight for freedom. In my experience it is very very rare for Israel supporters to want to reach out to palestinian mothers. The fact that quivering does want to reach out is very positive as maybe it means that she is seeing past the propaganda. Like I said I don't want to upset anyone I'm just sharing my experience of being part of bridging initiatives.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 11:27:00

no i agree, you can't align yourself with the murdering of children and claim you are 'moderate'.

and i don't think it was suggested they'd have to be reading from the same songsheet but some work would have to first going into finding out more, exposing yourself to things, beginning to at least have question marks where once you had definitive exclamation marks.

halfdrunk - i'd really suggest you watch those videos.

AndHarry Sat 19-Jul-14 11:29:37

Interesting video and an interesting article showing two very different points of view.

The article has already been linked to on this thread but I think the sources are good to consider side-by-side.

SorrelForbes Sat 19-Jul-14 11:42:43

TheHoneyBadger: but i do struggle to think that if you do not follow the most fundamental laws of a religion or believe in the importance of them it's hard to call yourself by that religions name

Wiki says:
An ethnoreligious group (or ethno-religious group) is an ethnic group of people whose members are also unified by a common religious background. Examples of ethnic groups defined by ancestral religions are the Jews, the Assyrians, the Armenians, the Druze of the Levant, the Copts of Egypt, the Yazidi of northern Iraq, the Zoroastrians of Iran and India, and the Serer of Senegal, the Gambia, and Mauritania.

I wouldn't consider myself to be religious but I definitely consider myself to be Jewish.

Sorry to digress. I am reading the thread with great interest.

JanineStHubbins Sat 19-Jul-14 11:44:22

Article by Avi Shlaim, which pulls no punches. He was once a Zionist and IDF member, now a much maligned Revisionist critic of Israeli policy.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 11:48:44

yes i know sorrel - but i think there is a distinction between an ethnic jew and a follower of judaism. my point was that israel is about ethnicity rather than religion. now that is clearly apartheid isn't it? to privilege one ethnic group over another and give legal rights to one denied to the other, access to services and areas and facilities etc to one and not the other? etc.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 11:49:30

i notice when you hear people speak on those videos they talk of jews and arabs -- again making clear this is ethnicity not religion we are dealing with i guess.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 11:52:08

i think people in the west get muddled and think this is a religious thing - jews and muslims and about religion when it's not.

much as NI wasn't really about religion but about pro and anti british occupation and the pro just happened to be protestants whereas the against were irish catholics.

they weren't fighting about their religion - it was politics that religious afiliations happened to align with.

i think for some reason it's almost advantageous for governments to present things as religious conflicts because then it puts the blame on the people, as if they are silly children fighting over their gods and to disguise the real solid geopolitics and state initiated causes of these kind of conflicts and denies the power of state and politics to resolve it.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 11:53:12

sorry that was a bit garbled and apologies if it is off topic.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 11:56:15

it's about territory and land.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 12:00:33

yep

bakingnovice Sat 19-Jul-14 12:04:45

Absolutely piglet. It's about land and the article above by Schlaim is very accurate. Especially when he states that land grabbing amd peace making are not compatible. That is why I also agree that someone sympathetic regime cannot genuinely reach out to the palestinians as quivering suggested. The mindset for wanting peace has to be there first and this inherently means that Israel must stop abusing and oppressing the palestinians.

There is no amount of spin that can convince normal folk that Israel with all its power and resources and weaponry is in any way a victim. I am Jewish and I know many many Jews who have come to realise that Israel is committing atrocities against the palestinians akin to those our ancestors faced in ww2.

Yruapita Sat 19-Jul-14 12:06:57

Great article janine. Thanks for the link.

I have lost all respect for Obama. His Iftar invite to American muslims was like a sick joke.

www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605774

The way that the world has treated the Palestinians, I wouldn't be surprised if they resort to desperate measures.

Obama should be ashamed of himself.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 12:25:27

there is always such hunger for war. none of these things are about religion or justice or peace or 'people'. they are about big powers with an obsession with wars and 99.999999% of us just don't come into it in the slightest and they couldn't give a toss how many of us are 'collatoral damage' to their power games.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 12:27:58

Gaza Ahmed Yassin Over Zionists - Against Israel: youtu.be/dvnXR_X-TX0

Also in light of the discussion about this not being about a religious war this is a powerful speech by one the leaders of hamas. He reiterates that Hamas are not waging war with the Jews but with those who stole their land.

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 12:36:09

I agree Sorrel - I know plenty of Jewish people who aren't in the least religious.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 12:46:54

it's ben going on for a very long time.

If these men who were deliberately crippled hated Israel, would we be surprised?

halfdrunkcoffee Sat 19-Jul-14 12:58:59

thehoneybadger - where has Quivering said she supports the murdering of children? See her post of Fri 18-Jul-14 14:33:48. Has she said, "I think what the Israeli army is doing is great. I don't care if they kill lots of civilians." She has also said she supports open borders, but is scared of a return to suicide bombings.

I do not agree with what the Israeli army is doing in Gaza. I apologise for not having yet watched the videos, but I have never once said that I agree with the occupation. I would happily see a binational state created in which both Jewish and Palestinian people could live side by side, or a two-state solution - or a two-state solution with free movement of people between both states (a bit like the EU member states). And, as AndHarry said, most world leaders endorsed Israel's actions, at least at the start of the conflict, so I feel it is important to try and understand other views, if we are to change things for the better. I admit I was fairly ignorant about the Middle East before the second intifada started in 2000. Since then, I have tried to read widely on the history of the conflict. Rather depressingly the situation has only got worse over the years.

cleanmean: well, perhaps it would be better to wait until a ceasefire has been announced, if that happens. But if Israelis who want to reach out are rebuffed, what hope is there for the future? For example, the Parents' Circle brings together bereaved Israeli and Palestinian families. I doubt that the parents are always singing from the same hymnsheet politically, but they can share the common experience of grief and get an insight into what it is like to live on the "other side". If nothing else I think initiatives to get Israelis and Palestinians talking might help see each other as human, even if they just talked about non-political topics.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 13:10:28

Piglet that video is harrowing. There are very many former IDF soldiers who have spoken out about the brutality they inflicted on innocent palestinians.

Not only have they been evicted en masse into an Israeli prison but they are subjected to daily brutality. Can I ask any supporters of Israel why the muslim palestinians have been banned from entering one of their holiest sites the al aqsa mosque? Apart from showing it's complete inhumanity what does Israel hope to achieve ?

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 13:39:16

There have been many comments on these two threads that Palestinian violence is justified / understandable because Israel is said to have grabbed their land, committed acts of oppression on desperate people and much more of the same; the implication seems to be that Israel are almost solely responsible for the continuing dreadful violence

Given that Hamas' aims include the complete obliteration of Israel - as clearly stated in their Charter - doesn't this suggest at the very least that "mindset change" isn't just required for the Israelis??

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 13:41:40

I'm ashamed to say I watched about 20 seconds of Piglet's video and just couldn't face anymore. I have no words.

I've just broken my own unwritten rule never to engage in spats on facebook but my bible-based Christian friend has just posted a sort of, "Yay, go Israel's Defence Force!" post on her page and I just couldn't contain myself.

I was shamed into commenting by the Jewish man on the Home Front video who said something like, "Bad things happen when good people do nothing". It's true.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 13:45:14

the first 20 seconds are not the worst.

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 13:48:29

Just to be clear, when peace talks happen one day, I will be the first person shouting loud to make sure Jewish and women's human rights are protected, as well as Christians, Arabs and Palestinians.

I understand Israeli fears - I completely get that there are Arabs out there who want Israel and Jewish people wiped off the face of the earth but you can't attack an entire population for that reason.

Maybe it's just as simple as two wrongs don't make a right.

When those three poor Israeli boys were kidnapped and murdered, the correct response would have been to track down the killers, arrest them and put them on trial, not collectively punish an entire population like this.

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 13:49:11

Oh God Piglet sad angry

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 13:54:00

Puzzled, to use your words - Israel are solely responsible for the continued violence. They have invaded by ground air and sea. If they withdrew Hamas would probably keep firing rockets which would be interceded by the iron dome and there would be no more casualties. They are attacking a refugee camp. But of course, I suppose you think the Palestinians aren't allowed to resist occupation?

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 13:55:27

but that would be acting legally wordsmith. sadly israel show utter contempt for the law.

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 13:58:47

I completely get that there are Arabs out there who want Israel and Jewish people wiped off the face of the earth but you can't attack an entire population for that reason

Sorry, pressed too soon wink I fully agree with you about not attacking an entire popultion - I'm simply intrigued as to why there are so few suggestions on here that Hamas might stop calling for exactly that, in their insistence that another state should be obliterated

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 14:00:36

Puzzled: Given that Hamas' aims include the complete obliteration of Israel - as clearly stated in their Charter - doesn't this suggest at the very least that "mindset change" isn't just required for the Israelis??

Yes Puzzled I agree. The trouble is, bombing and killing Palestinians civilians is not going to encourage a mindset change. When I think of it now, the Afrikaners were actually very clever, in that they completely dismantled apartheid, except for the right to vote, before the 1994 general election over some time. All that created a huge amount of goodwill towards white people as black people gradually realised they were serious about peace and democracy. This encouraged a mindset change amongst black people.

I wish the Israeli government would do the same. The trouble is whilst I know the Israeli people want peace I'm not sure all their leaders do - I think they want maximum land as is clear from those Home Front videos.

wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 14:05:08

I absolutely think Hamas should stop calling for the obliteration of all Jews (at least those Hamas leaders who are doing that) but I don't think this should stop a peace process. This is why I think this needs a grassroots solution. During our own peace process, we had plenty of people on both sides who tried to derail it, you just have to ignore them.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 14:08:26

thats an interesting comment samg at your shudder about palestianian population growth. it must be so conflicting over whether to go for a one state solution and risk being demographically challenged by palestianian birth rates and be a minority in a jewish state. or whether to go for a two state solution but then gaza's huge gas reserves go to the palestianians to benefit from and develop www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/opinion/gaza-and-israel-the-road-to-war-paved-by-the-west.html?_r=1

because all this is about resources. keeping the palestianians malnourished and sick by the blockade so they cant even think to start developing their country by their natural resources.

last month the hamas government were making concessions to Fatah and the Palestinian authority to give them administrative control over Gaza. Israel should have been celebrating. Hamas had agreed to cede control to Ramallah after years of crippling sanctions and blockades on Gaza.

"in many ways, the reconciliation government could have served Israel’s interests. It offered Hamas’s political adversaries a foothold in Gaza; it was formed without a single Hamas member; it retained the same Ramallah-based prime minister, deputy prime ministers, finance minister and foreign minister; and, most important, it pledged to comply with the three conditions for Western aid long demanded by America and its European allies: nonviolence, adherence to past agreements and recognition of Israel."

www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/opinion/gaza-and-israel-the-road-to-war-paved-by-the-west.html?_r=1

but Israel couldnt stand it because it was to lead to unity and reconciliation between the palestianians, making it much harder to trade mere trinkets for Gazan natural gas if its not just the corrupt Fatah they are dealing with.

Yruapita Sat 19-Jul-14 14:08:56

I tried to watch the video, but it tells me to sign in first - i need to get that sorted. I can only imagine that unimaginable brutality has been displayed.

For those who ask why Israel gets singled out, here is a good article:

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/07/we-single-israel-out-because-we-west-are-shamefully-complicit-its-crimes

Israel keeps scaring its people into believing that all Arabs want to wipe out the Israelis. There are groups that possibly do, many will be those who have suffered and suffered immense injustice and torture, both physical and emotional, under Israeli occupation. There will also be many who dont want to kill. They just want freedom too.

Also, note how Israel would rather keep Hamas than say Al-Qaeda or ISIS take hold. Because then Israel really would have much more to worry about.

The fact that the Western leaders condone Israel's behaviour, also make them complicit in crimes against humanity. It leaves oppressed people at the mercy of the evil and oppressor. A backlash will always occur at some point. Wipe out oppression, 'terrorism' will not gain a foothold.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 14:10:26

israel had to move fast because of the agreements between the palestinians to start the siege to make it as if they are fighting Hamas. just when Hamas were going to leave the field to the PA. Netanyahu is a very diabolical genius.

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 14:12:31

at this point in time i would imagine they cannot imagine a situation in which israel could exist and not still be murdering and oppressing arabs. if we reached a point ever where israel was not murdering and oppressing arabs then that mindset could begin to change. until that point of course it can't change - when you can see your people being slaughtered mercilessly and have watched it for decades how much faith would you have that they were ever going to stop?

TheHoneyBadger Sat 19-Jul-14 14:17:07

interesting post crescentmoon. i was unaware that that agreement had been taking place.

what an utter waste of life this is.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 14:17:07

how many times can the three boys murdered by avenged. in the week before their bodies were found 6 palestinians were killed in the israeli army searches. they were set on Hamas being responsible for the murders. then the palestianian boy from jerusalem was kidnapped tortured and killed in revenge for the killing. then israel begins the bombing of Gaza again to revenge against hamas, and now 200 plus palestinians are killed. just when, last month, June 2014, israel should have been celebrating that hamas were now leaving the field to the PA. but it did everything to stop the process and keep the narrative fixed. its israel that doesnt want peace and reconciliation, not the palestinians.

Yruapita Sat 19-Jul-14 14:23:47

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flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 14:26:45

I think the figure is now around 300 palestinian deaths. Mostly children and women.

Puzzled I agree that mindsets have to change but as piglet John and others have pointed out how can the palestinians even begin to change their minds er when they are being persecuted so ruthlessly? It is too much to ask at this time when the cruelty and oppression has reached fever pitch. There are reports from Gaza today that the land, sea and air attacks are everywhere. No one is safe. This is illegal and Israel as the oppressor is the one who needs to step down.

The truth is Israel have spent decades ensuring that the palestinians have been subjugated and destroyed and to expect palestinians now to change mindsets will be difficult. The first step on the road to changing mindsets is for Israel to stop the genocide, then Hamas should be forced to stop firing rockets. If Israel atones in some way (how can they atone for obliterating generations of palestinians?!) And is held accountable for war crimes then maybe palestinians will begin to believe that their nightmare is coming to am end.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 14:29:41

i think the two state solution is dead in the water, they should just swallow their pride, go one state and accept being citizens of Israel. it would mean giving over Gaza's natural resources to the israeli government but then again, in 20 years, they can peacefully because of demographics and democracy gain control over that again.

i agree with many others that this isnt about religion but about politics. there are many zionists who are atheists - though there is a contradiction when they say God wanted them to have Palestine. i dont believe the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza and the west bank represent world jewry anymore than Al qaeda represent world muslims.

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 14:56:38

It seems to me - as it always has - that there's a great deal of fault on both sides here; actually I hate using that word "sides" but am doing it simply for brevity, not with any ill intent

Palestinians consider themselves oppressed by Israel's actions, Israelis believe Hamas's stated aim to obliterate them to be sincere, everyone thinks "the other side" should be the ones to call a halt first and as usual the politicians muddy everything

Personally I agree with Wordsmith; a grassroots solution could well be the only answer to the whole thing ...

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 15:02:18

umm, do you really mean palestinians 'consider' themselves oppressed by israel as in, its subjective? all in their minds? there are a fair few outsiders looking in including members of our own houses of parliament who would put it as fact. not a 'narrative' that the palestinians have constructed of their own lives. but certainly, there is definitely a side 'narrating' a story of and for themselves to try to justify their actions.

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 15:10:44

Do you really mean palestinians 'consider' themselves oppressed by israel as in, its subjective? all in their minds?

No, not at all - I completely appreciate that for everyone involved the awful things which are happening are very real

It's simply that for me, this isn't as one-sided or straightforward as each group like to claim it is

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 15:35:12

Puzzled I think that was really badly worded on your part. Not even Israel denies it is oppressing and killing palestinians (citing self defence as the reason).

A grassroots solution won't resolve the situation, it can change mindsets but the only resolution is for Israel to stop land grabbing and allow palestinians basic human rights. This will happen, israel is on borrowed time. Like south Africa and america, israel will have to relinquish control and stop killing a whole race of people. It will be hard for Israel to give up its zionist colonialised ideology but if south Africa can do it so can they.

donnie Sat 19-Jul-14 15:41:37

I would be interested in hearing the Pro-Israeli reaction to my earlier comment that Likud is a party which was founded by a terrorist. Do they agree or disagree?

Begin and the rest of Stern / Irgun took organised and carried out mass killings and bombings - except that he was viewed by many hardline Israelis as a freedom fighter. This was when Israel was founded in the late 1940s.How do people see a significant difference between these actions and the actions of Hamas, out of interest?

I also said right at the beginning of the other thread that Bibi has no right to be the Israeli leader. His brother was killed by the PLO so how on earth can he be expected to hold any kind of balanced political perspective? of course he hates the Palestinians. He denounced Yitzhak Rabin as a traitor when the former leader was negotiating peace with Arafat in the 90s. Many people view him (Bibi) as having played a significant part in inciting the Zionist hatred which led to Rabin's assassination.

And then there is the delightful Miss Shaked, Knesset member and hardline racist who describes Palestinians as 'snakes' and calls for them to burn in hell.

The situation is unsustainable though. For everyone. It's a one state solution, IMO, or bust.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 15:51:03

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wordsmithsforever Sat 19-Jul-14 15:51:06

Very good Parliament clip crescent moon thank you! It's great to see these MPs asking these questions especially:

"When will our government apply pressure on Israel to adhere to international law?"

Good question! This is what every British citizen should be asking.

Sick of namby pamby statements saying Israel has a right to defend itself when that defence is so utterly disproportionate.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 16:04:14

There was a fantastic analogy on twitter last week by a journalist. It was something along the lines of this: Israel citing self defence is like a rapist complaining that he has been slapped by the victim.

It's really badly put by me but along the lines of that.

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 16:14:29

Puzzled I think that was really badly worded on your part. Not even Israel denies it is oppressing and killing palestinians (citing self defence as the reason)

If it was then I apologise, although if you read my post again carefully you'll see that I've not denied anything. In saying that the various groups "consider" or "believe" something, my intention was to recognise their views but avoid passing judgement one way or another, something I'm neither qualified nor entitled to do

I will, however, reiterate my own view that there's fault on all sides and that the situation is more complex than some acknowledge

AndHarry Sat 19-Jul-14 17:55:19

Excellent video crescent. I do like Jack Straw. And William Hague as it happens, although I don't agree with the government lines he was trotting out. It will be interesting to see what he has to say when he gets round to writing his autobiography.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 18:28:26

What is the fault of the palestinians other than resistance? Yes they have committed terrible acts of resistance but other than resistance where is their fault puzzled? They have been systematically removed from their homes and denied even the most basic human rights.

The fault lies largely if nor wholly with Israel. Over 100,000 are marching through London today to denounce Israel. Many of them jews. Israel is fast losing the sympathy of the world which it has formerly enjoyed by presenting the palestinians as suicide bombing savages.

This article by Lawrence weschler, well known Jewish writer, sums up accurately.
mondoweiss.net/2014/07/concentration-delusion-recognize.html

OberonTheHopeful Sat 19-Jul-14 18:42:55

I've been lurking on this thread for a while, a very valuable discussion on a subject I've taken some interest in. I'm not sure there is anything much I can add over what has been already said, and don't wish to intrude, but I did find this article quite interesting:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/as-a-child-growing-up-in-israel-i-saw-how-palestinians-became-increasingly-dehumanised-9612032.html

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 18:51:57

glad you found the video so wordsmith and harry. i nearly fell off my chair at the Tory MPs who spoke up, i did feel that there wasnt total apathy and silence from our government after watching it.

i really didnt want to get into this thread or the previous israel/palestine thread. i didnt want to read pro IDF propaganda when im fasting - hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil and all that. what was that goebbels quote? tell a lie often enough, and keep repeating it, and people will eventually come to believe it? iv thought it all along about the complete editing out of the formation of the unity government and Hamas's seceding of Gaza to the Palestinian authority last month. Israel had with that not just a poxy ceasefire but a victory that after all these years of blockade they finally got regime change in Gaza.

but they wanted it on the back of civil war between Gaza and the West Bank not a resolute agreement between two sides coming together. you know why? israeli hawks always get threatened by any palestinian or arab unity - harder to play each side against the other. they needed a chaotic palestinian side to make the negotiations for the selling of Gaza's natural gas much cheaper for Israel - not a side focused on setting aside power and differences for the good of their country. Hamas's move last month - in order to lift the blockade of Gaza - might have just shamed Fatah long enough to negotiate not just on enough money to enrich themselves but set a fair price with which they could build up the palestinian infrastructure and economy.

to forestall that instead Netanyahu had to quickly orchestrate a war and an intervention to break the rapproachment between the PA and Hamas.
i hate that man but i have to hand it to him, he will lie/ cheat/ steal for his own people. if only the other side had people half as loyal and intelligent. reading the coverage of the conflict in the papers a quote by malcolm X has been brought to mind: "“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”" but slowly things are changing and more people are realising how much the Israeli propaganda machine is just all smoke and mirrors.

washington post animated cartoon on who netanyahu really means to 'pound', not Hamas, but Gaza's children.

AndHarry Sat 19-Jul-14 20:42:42

flyaway fault lies with the Palestinians for the following:
- aiming rockets at civilian targets like a nursery;
- Hamas refusing to change its charter, which would make a huge psychological difference, despite its leaders seeming to be rather embarrassed by it and Yasser Arafat promising to take out the bit about destroying Israel;
- Hamas diverting foreign aid away from humanitarian purposes to fund its military wing;
- Hamas encouraging civilians to stay put rather than evacuate homes due to be bombed;
- Hamas glorifying the 'martyrdom' of babies, children, the elderly and others unable to run from bombs;
- using summer camps and school to teach a message of hatred towards Israelis.

I don't think what Israel is doing is right. Neither though are Hamas absolved from blame.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 20:54:15

bollocks, the israeli military industrial complex at work.

Backinthering Sat 19-Jul-14 21:07:24

Just to give an update if anyone is interested - I attended the demo in Glasgow today to support Gaza. Fantastic turnout despite the heavy rain. I feel it's important to say that there was no hint whatever of anti-semitism during the protest, which I know people such as Quivering had asked about/expressed concern about. In fact, one of the speakers was Jewish and very warmly applauded.

AndHarry Sat 19-Jul-14 21:07:57

So those points are untrue?

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 21:08:18

You beat me to it, "AndHarry" I also believe the Palestinian people bear some responsibility for having handed a massive parliamentary majority to a party who openly advocate the obliteration of a neighbouring state

None of this makes the slaughter of hundreds right - it can never be right - but for me it indicates that, as I said, blame is not one-sided, nor is any of this straightforward

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 21:21:30

I'm sorry but I don't agree. Israel absolutely dehumanised a whole nation, brutal use them and annihilate them. Do you think Hamas would even be in power if Israel hadn't unleashed hell on the palestinians for 6 decades?

Whatever you and Israel and think of hamas they are the elected government of palestine. Israel have far worse training methods for their military as witnessed this week. And I though the first thread established that we were all in agreement that collective punishment is abhorrent.

Puzzled - you clearly have a problem with the palestinian people. You state Hamas have a desire to obliterate Israel. This may be so, but Israel has the same agenda and is carrying out in the full glare of the world. By your logic we could argue that all Israelis are to blame for voting in a sick and depraved zionist government. But we know that is not the case.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 21:30:35

Wow.

According to this thread:

"Israel has no intention to stop land grabbing and murdering every last child in Palestine. History and the present has shown the Palestinians that Israeli soldiers and leaders are savages, intent on genocide. "

and

*"i think israel are also resolved on a one state solution also but probably trying to kill as many palestinian women and children as possible to bring the population of Gaza down to acceptable levels. forestall the demographic timebomb as it were."

So nice, measured statements. Not the Israeli government, or a few right-wing nutters, but "Israel" apparently want to do this. So could you clarify, please - from your presumably great knowledge of Israel and Israelis' inner intentions - does this genocidal hatred and murderous intent apply to ALL Israelis?

Because it's strange and quite unaccountable - but I actually know many Israelis. And not one of them wishes to harm in any way let alone murder a single Palestinian. The ones I know would very much like to be able to go about their daily lives without having to be within 75 seconds of a bomb shelter at all times. Would like to know how to explain to their children why rockets keep being fired at them. A friend's 7 year old had her party cancelled this week due to non-stop rocket fire. Is she guilty of being a putative mass-murderer too? She's seven.

Interested to hear from those on this thread who seem to think that they are the representatives of calm, unbiased rational thought. Yruapita, crescentmoon etc.

AndHarry Sat 19-Jul-14 21:30:41

And I though the first thread established that we were all in agreement that collective punishment is abhorrent.

We did indeed. You might also have noticed that I am no fan of Israel's leadership or tactics. The Palestinians, IMO, are entitled to resist occupation. The list above though shows where I utterly condemn their actions. Like this one: the murder of Tali Hatuel, who was 8 months pregnant, and her four daughters aged 2-10. That Israel are wrong does not make everything Palestinians do right and vice versa.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 21:35:12

Topbanana

The Israelis may resent having to be close to a shelter at all times

The families of the hundreds of Palestinians recently killed might envy them that privelidge.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 21:48:05

Topbanana

Are you able to conceive of disgust at the actions of "Israel" being the actions of the state, as commanded by the government and carried out by the armed forces?

Are you able to conceive that these repellent actions are a result of the voters of Israel putting into power people willing to perform such acts?

However we can distinguish between the actions of the state and the actions of individuals.

I am sure you will agree that not all citizens would have had to do more than drive the trains, and may say that would not have wanted, personally and individually, to carry out criminal acts of violence. Many of those who did may say that they were only obeying orders. Indeed this is often said by IDF people when expressing regret for what they have done.

AndHarry Sat 19-Jul-14 21:50:27

Oberon posted an interesting article from The Independent. Has anyone got an authoritative source describing how young Israelis and Palestinians are taught about one another?

Yruapita Sat 19-Jul-14 22:11:13

topbanana you know very well that i am referring to the government and the IDF.

The BBC reported that 90% of Israelis supported the air campaign. So I would say my comments are very 'measured' considering.

If the stats are wrong, take it up with the BBC. Admittedly I cannot find the article on BBC but hVe found it on this site. I definitely read it on BBC.
www.thedailystar.net/thousands-flee-northern-gaza-death-toll-reaches-172-33295

Its interesting how you worry about my statements being 'measured', yet no mention of Israel's 'measured' response. Or need I say israeli government!

Also we have seen many Israel apologists stating how they dont wish to kill Palestinians, but support Israel's decision to bomb the living daylights out of Palestine. Because bombsanddeath dont go hand in hand do they!
V
Care to explain to the families of dead babies and disabled that their loved ones that Israel killed them because it wants to live in peace!

The little Israeli girl should not have to live with threats of rockets, the little Palestinian girls would swap to have the life of that little girl in a heartbeat.

So lets not apportion equal blame, because the oppressor and the oppressed are not the same.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:11:36

PigletJohn - is Israel stopping Palestinians building shelters? Or sheltering where they can? By no means all Israelis are near a shelter at all times - how do you think people get to work, school etc? Can they go out at all?

My friend with the 7 year old dd posted on facebook about how she dared to go outside with her dd for a brief moment - and there was an air raid immediately, leaving them nowhere to hide. And she lives in Tel Aviv, a major Israeli city, not on the border with Gaza, or in a settlement.

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 22:12:23

Puzzled - you clearly have a problem with the palestinian people

No, I have a problem with anyone who believes that violence can ever be an answer; where they come from is of less importance to me than their intent

I'm truly sorry if that doesn't happen to suit, just as I regret the seeming insistence that blame belongs exclusively to one group, and that any view to the contrary is somehow beyond the pale

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:14:31

This is from the Guardian: this guy is not trying to kill anyone; he's just trying to get to work.

https://witness.theguardian.com/assignment/53b3e204e4b0bcfdaf4042e3?page=2&order=latest

"another day at the office

I live in Tel Aviv, but work in Beer She'va so I have to take a 1.5 hrs train ride to work every day. .

For the average person this usually means plenty of time to get stuff done, do some paperwork, read the news, get a bite to eat and listen to some music..

But my train ride consists of me staring out the window, clenching to my seat. Constantly on the lookout, no time for anything else.

I travel through direct missile range for at least 45 minutes. I Can't nod off, or do anything else. The siren might go off, which means I'll have to run for cover and hide.

Did I say hide? I actually meant- lying on the floor of the train, covering my head with my hands. Will it do me any good in case we get hit by a rocket? No. But at least I get to feel like I've done something to protect myself.

I get to work. Safely. I feel lucky. I run to my office (literally run), where a bomb shelter can protect me in case of an attack. This fake feeling of safety keeps me going through the working day- otherwise I'll go mad with worry.

Have you ever heard a bomb siren? Most of you have probably only heard one in old movies. Let me tell you what it sounds like- it starts out like a wailing ambulance in the distance, then gets stronger and louder until yours ears start ringing- with fear, with noise, and you have to run as fast as humanly possible to shelter.

All the mums around me cry out to their children. They are alone and missiles are flying over their heads.

My work is piling up on my desk, but siren after siren means I can't get anything done. A frenzy hubbub of people rushing around me hysterically is all I see.

One siren after the other, and then my day is finally done. I rush back to catch the train home.

Another terrifyingly hour and a half go by until I get back to Tel Aviv. I just want to put my head down and rest after this horribly long day.

But then I hear the blood curdling sound of a distant wail, an ambulance perhaps? No. It grows stronger and closer and I have to rush out to safety. This time- my staircase. Looking at my next door neighbour, in her dressing gown and flip flops.."

Poppet1974 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:15:12

A seven year old child had her party cancelled?? Are you serious? Did I really just read that?
Israeli forces are killing innocent children left, right and centre in Gaza and you have the nerve to come on to this forum to bleat about a child's party being cancelled!
I didn't think it was possible but my blood is actually boiling!

justasecond Sat 19-Jul-14 22:16:30

"A friend's 7 year old had her party cancelled this week due to non-stop rocket fire"

This is surely a piss take?? Have you seen any of the images of mutilated, burned and dead children coming out of Gaza this week?

justasecond Sat 19-Jul-14 22:17:09

cross post Poppet. That one really fucking pissed me off too.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:17:10

And here's one from an ordinary Israeli 26-year-old woman, could be you, could be me. She's not trying to kill anyone either.:

https://witness.theguardian.com/assignment/53b3e204e4b0bcfdaf4042e3?INTCMP=mic_231930

"I am AFRAID

Israel is under fire and I am really afraid. I never felt like this, and you should know - it is not what normal life looks like.

Tel-Aviv, the centre of the tiny Israel. The city that never sleeps - went to a very deep bad dream. Pubs are empty, beaches the same. No one goes out in Friday morning to have a coffee outside. Nobody wants to take a risk and to take the childrens to play in the garden. Too dangerous, can you imagine?

Alarm goes off so many times in a single day - morning, noon, evening, night. Each time we run for a shelter, RUN FOR OUR LIFE!.
And there, in the shelter, it just goes crazier - Babies, young kids, elders that barely got there on time - with sad eyes, holding each other so strong. You can hear there the girl that cannot stop crying, the 6 years old boy coming to hold her hand, and parents that cannot find the right words to say, cause seriously - what can you say?.

I am afraid, WE are afraid. Hamas sees us, the civilians, as targets. I want to wake up from this nightmare. NOW.

Reut Yerushalmi, 26 years old, Tel-Aviv, Israel.
"

justasecond Sat 19-Jul-14 22:17:32

and I never even swear irl

Backinthering Sat 19-Jul-14 22:18:55

The Palestinians are blockaded. They've not been able to bring in the building supplies to rebuild their homes aftet the last lot of bombings much less build bomb shelters.
Also being crammed in, they mostly live in dense apartment blocks. Where would the shelters go?
Agree seriously bad taste comment re the child's birthday party.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 22:24:51

Topbanana - your friends 7 year old had to cancel a party??! Seriously?! Sorry but I have very little sympathy for her. I will reserve my sympathy for the dead people in this genocide like the 4 little boys playing on the beach. There is just absolutely no comparison whatsoever either between whole generations of families being wiped out by illegal bombs and having to run to a shelter and feeling fed up.

If you had bothered to read both threads you will have seen quite a lot of support for people in Israel who are caught up in the actions of their government.

Harry - I agree. There are despicable actions on both sides.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:25:11

Poppet and justasecond. Try reading the posts I just posted above. Life is not 'normal for Israelis under constant rocket fire. It is deeply traumatic. I posted about the party because it was a little thing (a big thing to a 7 year old, but a little thing) that I thought a site consisting largely of mums would understand.

Your argument seems to be that because Palestinian children have died it's OK to traumatise all of Israel including children, by firing rockets at them constantly.

Which is really stupid logic because
(a) all children, Israeli ones included, should not be the victims of any form of attack. In other words, if you think Israel is wrong to attack Palestinian children, then it is equally wrong for Hamas to attack Israeli children.
And (b) Hamas' sending of non-stop rocket fire lies behind the Israeli attacks on Palestinians. Whether you think it is a justified response or a mere pretext is irrelevant. The fact remains that without rocket attacks, Israel would have no argument or need to invade or attack Gaza.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:28:33

flywayaway - no I have not 'bothered to read both threads'. I'm replying to this thread right here. I cannot be expected to search all of MN in case you have posted on the topic before.

It is not an either-or - you can be deeply saddened by the deaths of innocent Palestinian children AND feel sad that Israeli children are under constant rocket fire.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 22:30:39

Topbanana

I gather you are unable to comprehend those who do not share your opinion.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 22:31:17

Life might not be normal in Israel but it is a million times better than the living death Israel is inflicting on the palestinian. But as a true apologist you will have little empathy for palestinian deaths.

You have nothing of interest to add to this thread and I hope no one engages with you further.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:31:35

How ironic coming from you, PigletJohn.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 22:36:09

Topbanana

If you seriously believe that fear of incoming rockets, and having to danfel a party, is remotely comparable to actual death of hundreds, then you have no understanding.

If you are as ignorant as you pretend, of Israel's blockade of building materials, resulting in not just a lack of shelters, but of homes, sewers, water treatment plant, sewage works and electricity supply, then you need to widen your sources of information.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:36:12

flyawayaway - your post says it all.

Clearly, if I do not agree with you on every point, then I "have nothing of interest to add to this thread" and you "hope no one engages with you further."

How would you feel if I said that about you?

Clearly we disagree - but I see only one of us who is so intolerant and closed-minded that they have closed down the discussion altogether.

If you think my views are wrong, by all means seek to persuade me. I am open to argument - so make your points without ad hominem abuse.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:40:54

PigletJohn - if you had read the posts I copied and pasted here from the Guardian, you would note that 'shelters' for Israelis does not usually mean purpose-built secure shelters. It means things the Palestinians have just as much access to as Israelis - like stairwells, the floors of trains... So I am not sure that blockades of building materials is the major factor re shelters you seem to think it is.

babbas Sat 19-Jul-14 22:41:02

Word of advice topbanana, you are coming across as ridiculous. Your arguments make no sense and you really are ruining a very informative thread with your uneducated nonsense.

Intolerant and close minded describe you perfectly. Are you bibi?

Poppet1974 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:41:13

I'm not arguing TB. I'm horrified! Horrified by the pictures and reports coming out of Gaza. I would be equally horrified to see the bodies of dead Israeli children but thats not what we're seeing.
You seem to rather naively take the position that if a person ( as any right thinking person would) condemns what's happening on Gaza that it follows that they support Hamas! That most certainly isn't the case.
Can you bring yourself to condemn what's happening in Gaza?

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 22:44:02

I wonder if the 7 year olds party would have been cancelled if her home had no piped drinking water, and no sewer for the toilets, and the electricity was off for an indefinite period.

I wonder if it would have been cancelled if the IDF phoned and said her house was going to be bombed.

I wonder if it would have been cancelled if she was in a village with no electricity supply, and Israel decided to destroy the solar power panels donated by Spain.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:46:14

And PigletJohn, I don't think fear of rockets is equivalent to deaths, of course not. I'm not suggesting some kind of bizarre quid pro quo, where the former excused the latter (or vice versa).

I can see no reason why some on this thread have such a problem seeing that both things are wrong. Israeli and Palestinian children are both innocent children, they both deserve the kinds of childhoods we take for granted in this country, to live lives free from violence, trauma, fear.

Why is that even a remotely controversial thing to say?

How on earth can that put my view so far beyond the pale that apparently I am not even worth engaging with??!

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 22:47:03

It is not an either/or - you can be deeply saddened by the deaths of innocent Palestinian children AND feel sad that Israeli children are under constant rocket fire

Precisely, Topbana - and how nice to see some understanding of the impact on everyone involved in this hateful conflict, instead of insistence that only one group carries blame and unfortunate abuse

Poppet1974 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:50:44

Let's hear that condemnation of what's happening to the people of Gaza TB.
I'm waiting......

babbas Sat 19-Jul-14 22:51:00

TB and puzzled - can you see any difference between a DEAD child and an upset one?

If not I too will refrain from engaging with you.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:51:31

babbas - if thinking that the situation will never be resolved as long as one side is demonised makes me ridiculous in your eyes, then hey, I'm happy to be 'ridiculous'.

I'm still waiting for a response from those who think that all Israelis are genocidal murderers. Because that's not ridiculous at all. On the contrary, on this thread that is unchallenged as utterly fair and logical.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 22:52:07

I am sad that both Palestinian and Israeli children are in fear of an attack.

I am much much much much more sad that hundreds of Palestinians, many of them children, have recently been killed.

Fear and death are not equivalent.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:55:21

Poppet - I've just said how deeply saddened I am by the death of every innocent in Gaza. Now let's have your expression of sadness for what's happening to the innocent Israelis.

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 22:56:45

No one on this thread or the last have said that all Israelis are genocidal murderers. Except for you TB.

Stop derailing the thread with your insensitive comparisons. And RTFT.

panachronic Sat 19-Jul-14 22:56:49

Where on this thread
has anyone said that 'all israelis' are genocidal murderers' topbanana?

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 22:56:54

Er...PigletJohn, I just said that fear and death are not equivalent.

Why do they have to be equivalent?

Should we be aiming to murder equal numbers on both sides, to make it 'fair'?

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:00:52

No-one on this thread have called all Israelis genocidal murderers."

Oh yes they have. See my post at

Sat 19-Jul-14 21:30:35

I was quoting verbatim from

Yruapita Sat 19-Jul-14 14:23:47

and

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 15:51:03

I can repost what they said again, if you like, but you're all capable of checking.

Backinthering Sat 19-Jul-14 23:01:11

No, we should be aiming for no deaths on either side. To make it fair.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:02:44

Ironic that you're telling me to RTFT - I've already quoted these links. Bother to read what I quoted before telling me to RTFT.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 23:02:45

Here we are talking about the deaths of hundreds, and you throw in the cancellation of a childs party.

Choose your own word for that.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:04:00

Backinthering.

My point exactly.

Not too controversial, I would have thought. hmm
Confused: [confus

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 23:04:19

Topbanana can you read? Please find me one post which states ALL Israelis are genocidal murderers. Except yours.

Poppet1974 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:05:25

Of course I feel sorry for innocent Israeli children whose lives are blighted by this conflict. That's a given.

Puzzledandpissedoff Sat 19-Jul-14 23:05:45

Can you see any difference between a DEAD child and an upset one?

I'd have thought the difference was only too obvious, babbas, which is one of the reasons why you'll never see me suggest that Israel is in some way faultless in all this

The sticking point seems to be my view that others also share some blame for this descent into hell - a view which is clearly anathema to so many on this thread

I respect their right to a view too, of course, but I'm certainly not about to join the abuse which has recently broken out - it seems to me there's already too much abuse among those most affected, without us creating more

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:06:37

Ah, back to that one, are we, PigletJohn?

That was one tiny anecdote. No-one -except for you - is trying to turn it into the whole picture.

I assume that you do not think that everything in Israel is fine apart from the cancellation of one children's party?

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:07:36

flyawayaway - RTFT.

panachronic Sat 19-Jul-14 23:08:14

I've just checked and crescentmoon did not say that 'all israelis are genocidal murderers'

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 23:08:59

Just one post will do TB. Struggling to find one?

Yes well that's because no one has said ALL Israelis are genocidal murderers.

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 23:09:23

I wonder if TB has ever seen a stairwell that can be used as a shelter against bombs, that can be built by someone with no access to bricks or cement or steel, due to the Israeli blockade.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:11:29

Here's what I ACTUALLY posted (for all those who apparently can't go back two pages):

"Wow.

According to this thread:

"Israel has no intention to stop land grabbing and murdering every last child in Palestine. History and the present has shown the Palestinians that Israeli soldiers and leaders are savages, intent on genocide. "

and

"i think israel are also resolved on a one state solution also but probably trying to kill as many palestinian women and children as possible to bring the population of Gaza down to acceptable levels. forestall the demographic timebomb as it were."

So nice, measured statements. Not the Israeli government, or a few right-wing nutters, but "Israel" apparently want to do this. So could you clarify, please - from your presumably great knowledge of Israel and Israelis' inner intentions - does this genocidal hatred and murderous intent apply to ALL Israelis?

Because it's strange and quite unaccountable - but I actually know many Israelis. And not one of them wishes to harm in any way let alone murder a single Palestinian. The ones I know would very much like to be able to go about their daily lives without having to be within 75 seconds of a bomb shelter at all times. Would like to know how to explain to their children why rockets keep being fired at them. A friend's 7 year old had her party cancelled this week due to non-stop rocket fire. Is she guilty of being a putative mass-murderer too? She's seven.

Interested to hear from those on this thread who seem to think that they are the representatives of calm, unbiased rational thought. Yruapita, crescentmoon etc."

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:12:40

ppigletJohn - are you seriously suggesting there are no stairwells in Gaza?

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 23:13:13

T

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 23:13:13

T

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 23:13:23

T

PigletJohn Sat 19-Jul-14 23:13:24

TB

flyawayaway Sat 19-Jul-14 23:13:28

Nowhere does it say ALL Israelis TB.

Only YOU said that.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:14:23

The quotes I gave in my last post but one were from Yruapita and crescent moon, as posted on P12 of this thread.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 23:16:30

Well finish what you quoted from me please banana, its clear I'm talking about the Israeli government and Netanyahu in particular. Who said murderous does Netanyahu regard what he is doing as murder? He would have to see the natives as above sub human first. I even posted the animation from the Washington post of Netanyahu beating that Palestinian child to further reiterate my point about Dear Bibi in particular. Not your average man on the street.

bakingnovice Sat 19-Jul-14 23:18:20

Nope sorry no one said that all Israelis are murderers. They referred to Israel as in the government and army. Don't play thick.

And get some perspective.

topbanana1 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:19:06

It says Israel is intent on genocide. Israel is trying to kills as many palestinian women and children as possible. But Israel is a country, a bit of earth. Israel does not do these things.

Who is meant if it is not Israelis?

If what was meant was particular Israelis - the government, say - it should say that. It doesn't. I'd certainly like to find out exactly what was meant.

Poppet1974 Sat 19-Jul-14 23:23:03

Oh for goodness sake TB'
You're wilfully misinterpreting that to make some sort of illogical point.

crescentmoon Sat 19-Jul-14 23:23:49

As for Israel not wanting to attack Gaza. Well what are we to conclude about israel's intentions when they still chose to prosecute a war after last month ? Was the blockade of Gaza to do with punishing Hamas or punishing the Palestinian civilians? It became unambiguous that it was the latter after Hamas faced facts and agreed to step down from power in favour of lifting the blockade in June. That should have been a great propaganda victory for Israel but instead they were unhappy about it.
I can only imagine based on the way that puzzled keeps invoking the culpability of Gazas democratic voters that it was because it wasn't by violent revolt and uprising? Maybe the civilians themselves hadn't absolved themselves enough to be safe from attack and bombing? maybe Netanyahu still regards the Palestinians as needing to be punished because they didn't fight Hamas to go? An unwritten condition of the blockade?
Maybe the agreement was perhaps a too calm and measured decision for Israel to stomach Palestinians making between themselves? From Hamas it was the biggest step towards peace in a decade- but Israel still blamed and killed a Hamas man in the West Bank this month.

justasecond Sat 19-Jul-14 23:26:25

I think its cystal clear to anyone reading this thread that in the context of what is being discussed "Israel "means Israeli goverment and not every last Israeli living in Israel. HTH