Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

That would be especially tragic in the context of Paul Mason's affectionate, bitter-sweet piece.

That is a very interesting quote justasecond and very revealing. It does very clearly and eloquently explain how Israel, and its supporters, think.

What has come across to me, from watching the reports from Gaza, is how the territory is still functioning. The Palestinians on the whole are very cultured and educated and they are managing in very difficult circumstances, to keep functioning as a society. It is heartbreaking to think of what they could have achieved if they had been allowed to live in peace and security.

There was a middle east commentator who said something along the lines of all israel is achieving with this genocide is a radicalisation of Jewish and palestinian children.

It is a war with no purpose. Even if they manage to eradicate hamas, although we now know this is not about destroying hamas, another group will appear in its place. Why don't israel try speaking to the palestinians instead of perpetuating this hatred?

The C4 interview was enlightening. The poor father of the dead youth looked destroyed but his lack of empathy for parents on the palestinian lost him the viewers sympathy. In stark contrast virtually every interview I have seen of grieving palestinian parents has shown them begging for peace and release of the siege. Mindsets need to change. I have some family in Israel who are mourning the deaths of idf soldiers they didn't know. They are upset and angry. But they refuse to acknowledge that Palestinian peoole are also suffering losses. Instead they are indoctrinated to believe that the palestinians have chosen to be killed, to be martyrs.

In what world is the blood of one mothers son not the same as another's? How far has your moral compass flipped when you cannot see that the loss of a child is a universal torture that every parent bears? When you lose empathy for others where does that leave you?

"my anger is towards the Israeli Army & Government" - glad to hear that Gold.

Yes Justasecond, contrary opinion is very healthy indeed. A lot more needed in Israel imo. I'm off to read that article now. All so futile.

I'm so sorry to hear about your family's grief AndHarry.

For those asking about how people view each others' grief, I've read online about the Parents' Circle, which brings together bereaved Israeli and Palestinian families.

Yes very futile.

When I turn the lights out at 10 pm tonight I will remember those fallen in ww1 and ww2. And I will wonder why we remember the ones we lost but can't learnt the lessons we should have learnt.

Right. Q&A session with a relative in Israel this evening. Reposted here with their permission. They posted me a video of Islamic extremists demonstrating in my town, chanting 'British police go to hell' and telling a woman that all non-Muslims will indeed burn in hell. This was to demonstrate that any community can be misrepresented if all you see is a small, extreme, snapshot.

My Q. after acknowledging the video: "Yet this afternoon I was chatting to a devout Muslim (books a meeting room at work to ensure he can do his 5 daily prayers) at work, laughing over the crazy finance system we use. I'm bearing that in mind as I hear certain sections of the debate claiming that 'all Israelis' are cheering that there are no children left in Gaza, that 'all IDF soldiers' are aiming at civilians, that 'all the Knesset' got the Palestinian representatives thrown out mid-speech 2 weeks ago, that 'all Likud members' want to see Gazans deported and Gaza razed to the ground. What is very difficult to gauge is how many people do think that way and how much support they have. Is it like the BNP being mis-represented as speaking for all Brits or is it more general than I would like to think?"

Their A: "Israeli politics is, and almost always has been, split very evenly down the centre, with the right (hawkish) wing and the left (peace) wing evenly supported. However, 2 sections which are markedly right wing- the national religious who are behind the settler movement, and the Russian immigrants- both have parties in the coalition and both have very high profile spokesmen.

"We know, then, that the way Israel is represented internationally is far more hawkish than the consensus here.

"I don't remember if it was to you that I wrote that I have no time for Netanyahu, and would certainly never vote for him, but at the moment he's saying what pretty much most people feel. To do that is just about the bravest thing I've ever known him do because the doom-mongers calling for all out war are shouting very loud and playing on people's fears. Any mistake he makes now will almost certainly cost him the leadership of the Likud and his job.

"It's one of the ironies here: peace with Egypt was made by the Likud: the 2005 withdrawal from Gaza (and uprooting of over 100,000 settlers was done almost single-handedly by the then PM Ariel Sharon (who lost his job as Minister of Defense after being accused, in Israel, of condoning war crimes). It seems that sometimes the moderate hawks have the best possibility of bringing about peace."

I was just thinking exactly the same somewheresafe

The hypocrisy shown by all of these Governments is unbelievable.

Why were the underground tunnels even built ?

Why if Hamas are firing bombs, are they not getting the back lash too?

Genuine question.

I've seen it on the news, been reading it on here and if both sides are sending bombs over and digging death tunnels, why are one side getting the blame.

Both hands are dirty here.

How many Israelis has Hamas killed this past month, Softly ?

And how many Palestinians has Israel's military killed ?

Therein lies your answer.

Softly it is how disproportionate things are which is the issue.

Say the Isle of white was firing rockets at us. But we had systems in place to stop these rockets ever landing and causing any loss of life or destruction.

They had no Army, No navy and NO airforce! But we attacked them with ours and targeted their Civilians and continuously dropped bombs that caused mass destruction killing over 14000 civilians. Unarmed women and children, a 4 day old baby etc. etc.

I suspect the tunnels were built for the same reason tunnels were built in the warsaw ghetto. People trying to get out. To be free. And probably to injure the oppressor.

Hamas are not firing bombs but rockets which never reach target. Sky news today described them almost as fireworks today. They are virtually ineffective at causing death and destruction. Partly due to their nature and partly due to the iron dome.

Softly we all know that if Hamas was killing Israelis on the same scale israel is killing palestine then we wouldn't be on day 27 of this genocide. Hamas would not have got past day 1. There is a very disturbing racist undercurrent in the world which has reared it's head this last month.

Crescent is right. The answer lies in the scale of deaths on one side.

This is my own personal opinion but for me, I don't need to condemn Hamas and other militants firing indiscriminately at civilians and digging tunnels reportedly aimed at kidnapping and killing them because it's ruddy obvious that those are terrible acts. What doesn't seem to be so obvious as to be taken for granted is that Israel in defending itself against such acts of aggression is also committing crimes against humanity, which the rockets and tunnels do not in any way excuse.

Softly- Hamas know that Israel have all these defence mechanism in place.

It's either do this or do nothing stay silent and keep living in an open air prison which is essentially what Gaza is. They are the voice of the palestinians but that does not mean that all palestinians are happy with their actions. They are controlled so tightly by the Israeli's. Repressed, reprimanded disproportionately, live in fear of the Army.

It's a big mess and things won't change until Israel give palestinians their freedom or they kill all the palestinians. Because Hamas although small are determined.

AndHarry thank you for posting that view from within Israel.

Have just watched Channel 4 News and an interview with a Palestinian civilian who said that there can be no peace until the siege is lifted 'we are dying anyway' he said.

I thought the Israeli negotiator made some very interesting points about how Israel will eventually have to face charges of war crimes.

Israel has whipped their people into a frenzy. It has made them believe that they are only safe in Israel and only fully safe once the palestinian threat is removed. Many Israelis feel the world is full of anti semitism and that their survival rests on the destruction of the palestinian people.

Because the palestinians are brave and courageous they refuse to go silently. I wonder what would happen if Israel tried the humanitarian approach and offered the proverbial olive branch to the palestinians.

Thread 5 opened now for you night owls as I'm off to bed :)

Just in response to Sam's earlier post dismissing the child victims here, and making out the majority were Palestinian fighters. As of 1st Aug-

1592 deaths in Gaza

Of which,

289 were members of resistance groups
57 were 'unknown'
1246 (78%) were civilians

Including 346 children. Over 25 days.

Source

Thanks for the replies, I now have a better idea of the scale.

I watched on the news last night, there was a Middle East expert on and he says there is links to all the fighting since the 1st world war because the British giverment screwed them over with the French regarding land

I had a pro Israel leaflet put through the door a few days ago. Only noticed it yesterday, thought it was another take away flyer. Went straight in the bin.

But I still don't agree with what both governments have done.

I have been reading this thread for weeks and never seem to get to the end of it! Its been really interesting and has made me look into finding out more information. I've always tended to side more with Isreal as due to having jewish blood and being the grand daughter of a nazi camp survivor it was always drummed into me that if the jews were persecuted again we would have somewhere to go and a state to protect us. Anyway, I do see things differently now and although i can see the motivation Isreal needs to stop its current campaign as it is not a long term solution.

One of my greatest fears i not being able to protect my children, my heart goes out to those who have lost family and who are scared - in both Gaza and Isreal.

I still have ALL of thread 4 to read but so far i have seen some really ugly comments on thread 3 and i know its an emotional subject. Hopefully thread 4 will be a bit better.

Halfdrunkcoffee - i enjoy reading your comments. thank you.

Thank you LadyLou30!

I liked this short video about Israelis in Sderot trying to imagine themselves as Palestinians. There is a lot of interesting stuff on +972 mag's website.

Hi, will read today's posts this eve once DS is in bed.

Quick post - if anyone is in West Yorkshire (don't want to say too much and 'out' myself) and interested in a Palestine Solidarity Group being set up (alongside an existing one) pls pm me!

One thing I would like to know from those people who are supporting Palestine is, if you feel that the actions in Iraq and Syria by the Muslims is as outrageous as the actions of Israel against Palestine?

I am neither pro-Israel or pro-Palestine but when I see what is happening in the rest of the world, I can only feel that culpability does not purely lie in the hands of Israel. Hamas are terrorists and Islamic fundamentalists and it is wrong to paint all Palestinians as the poor sorry victims. I have no doubt that if I met with one of these fundamentalists they would want me dead.

I think the ISIS actions in Syria are absolutely horrendous and despicable. It is a particular brand of Islam that has been promoted by the Saudis and other Gulf Arabs for political reasons, just as the Taliban were supported in Afghanistan. Most Muslims deplore the actions of these people.