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Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

956 replies

AndHarry · 31/07/2014 11:46

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines Wink

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

OP posts:
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5
Springheeled · 31/07/2014 23:52

June55 controlling food, controlling movement, controlling space, controlling supplies- subjugation and oppression, simple. Daily insult upon insult, indignity upon indignity.

somewheresafe · 01/08/2014 00:00

June 55 - the calorie controlling is Israel being moral by ensuring the poor dehumanised palestinians do not starve to death. It is often cited by Israelis who argue how wonderful an oppressor israel is.

This is why Hamas want the siege lifted. There are many indignities and inequalities associated with the siege. Sadly I doubt israel will ever agree to end the siege.

June55 · 01/08/2014 00:14

Thank you OhBugger, Springheeled and Somewheresafe, but I would like to hear the "official reason". Perhaps someone who is "on the fence" or pro Israeli actions could elucidate. It does seem very bizarre to me.

What concerns me more at the moment is that Gaza has no water or electricity as tweeted by one of the doctors in the Shaifa? hospital. The one where the Norwegian doctor works. This is very bad news especially for hospitals and various other vulnerable people. I really dont understand why it is necessary to deprive fellow humans of basics.

I read that the British PM Cameron has given 3 million pounds and the Scottish have given half a million pounds for humanitarian aid. I hope this helps with basics. When you read hospitals are running out of gauze you have to wonder how on earth they can be depleted in such basics.

justasecond · 01/08/2014 00:27

June55
Noam Chomsky has written about this calorie restriction strategy. You can google it yourself or see this link here.

truth-out.org/opinion/item/12635-noam-chomsky-my-visit-to-gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison

below is the relevant section of the article highlighted

*"Recently, after several years of effort, the Israeli human rights organization Gisha succeeded in obtaining a court order for the government to release its records detailing plans for the "diet."

Jonathan Cook, a journalist based in Israel, summarizes them: "Health officials provided calculations of the minimum number of calories needed by Gaza's 1.5 million inhabitants to avoid malnutrition. Those figures were then translated into truckloads of food Israel was supposed to allow in each day ... an average of only 67 trucks much less than half of the minimum requirement entered Gaza daily. This compared to more than 400 trucks before the blockade began."

The result of imposing the diet, Middle East scholar Juan Cole observes, is that "about 10 percent of Palestinian children in Gaza under age 5 have had their growth stunted by malnutrition. ... In addition, anemia is widespread, affecting over two-thirds of infants, 58.6 percent of schoolchildren, and over a third of pregnant mothers."*

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 00:32

fucking bastards.

June55 · 01/08/2014 00:33

@OhBugger

I have just read your link, quite shocking it is if true. I really dont understand all this craziness. It must be hell for all sides in various ways. Whats ironic is its all happening in the birthplace of the three main religions, and all profess peace, how insane is this? My bed calls.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 00:33

Sorry, have gone beyond any rational wording!

June55 · 01/08/2014 00:35

And thanks Justasecond for the extra link to read.

justasecond · 01/08/2014 00:36

Quite understandable Springheeled.

ReigningQueen · 01/08/2014 00:45

How was this even allowed to have happened? Were there no human rights campaigners fighting for them? It's amazing how well hidden it was.

Yruapita · 01/08/2014 01:01

US backing of Israel has led to this. Even now, US is fully arming Israel to go kill the mothers and children. You know, the ones with stunted growth, the ones who look small for their age and the mothers who have inadequate nutrition especially during pregnancy and breastfeeding.

Obama is spineless.

OhBuggerandArse · 01/08/2014 07:28

ReigningQueen Fri 01-Aug-14 00:45:30
How was this even allowed to have happened? Were there no human rights campaigners fighting for them? It's amazing how well hidden it was.

These has been a long standing series of international campaigns by many different people and groups for many years. Many currently serving politicians in the UK have been involved in it, as have human rights activists, academics, and artists. You could look at the Jewish Voice for Peace and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign for starters. Also Haim Bresheeth's film work.

It hasn't been hidden at all, but an awful lot of people have chosen not to look.

OhBuggerandArse · 01/08/2014 07:41

Conversely, it's worth looking at how many Tory and Labour politicians are members of their respective Friends of Israel groups, which have been responsible for placing enormous pressure on succeeding governments to support Israeli actions unconditionally. Also at the work of lobbyists and funders, not a problem confined to the US as we'd like to think.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/08/2014 08:08

no it hasn't been hidden. the world has just turned away it's face. media coverage only happens when things are at their most extreme - in reality it's endlessly extreme and endlessly criminal.

however with US support as it is and EU essentially condoning it via free trade with israel....? there hasn't been much anyone can do against forces like that. we have to put the pressure on our politicians to try and change that. i've been regailed before as to why we don't DO SOMETHING. i've shown friends footage of marches, demonstrations, links to pages etc but it's hard for people to understand that in what is held up as such a democratic nation we can't actually MAKE our leaders listen.

as far as i've seen only the green party has openly condemned this latest series of attacks on gaza and they haven't exactly publicised that condemnation broadly.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/08/2014 08:10

i have less than zero political influence in terms of voting as i live in a tory stronghold by such a landslide it becomes pointless to even bother to vote - there's not even a strategic vote you could make to try and challenge them.

very depressing.

ReigningQueen · 01/08/2014 08:22

But why is there unconditional support? I have been aware that there has been a blockade and I did know know of some of the awful treatment like limited medical care but not to the extent of a 1200 calorie restriction per person.
How utterly disgusting. It's not far off a concentration camp is it? Or am I not allowed to say that?

timbucktoo · 01/08/2014 08:25

There are lots of people posting messages for peace on FB now which is a great turning point. The hate has to stop we can all do our bit,no matter how small.

Hakluyt · 01/08/2014 08:30

Timbucktoo- click my link......

ReigningQueen · 01/08/2014 08:34

I just find it all so hard to comprehend and although I think the people can do as much as they can by demonstrating, boycotting etc I have doubts that anything will be done.
I don't know what Israelis mission is.
Whether it be wiping out Palestinians, wanting control of the gas or grabbing all of gaza, I think they'll achieve their aim while all the influential powers stand by and continue to offer their support that Israel has a right to defend itself.
I just feel saddened and angry at how the Palestinians have been treated and no one in power ever spoke out that it was wrong.

TheHoneyBadger · 01/08/2014 08:53

the chomsky article was a good read, can't remember who posted it but thank you.

even the water situation has gaza being declared as due to be unfit to be lived upon by 2020. add to that the increased destruction of key infrastructure which under the blockade they cannot repair or rebuild as they're not allowed the material to do so and the continued pollution of the water close to shore by all of these weapons and the fact the israelis won't allow them further out in their own waters to fish in clearer water and...?

it's a time bomb. it's already virtually uninhabitable. even by old assessments it was only to have 6 years of habitability left and i think we can guarantee lead and protective edge have reduced that. and what? the world wants them to just sit their quietly and die without resisting?

there is very little time left for the people of gaza even without mass murdering them by the faster method of airstrikes.

the blockade HAS to stop. there's no use now just arguing for israel to stop bombing them for a bit 'this time'. it's not enough. the blockade has to stop and they have to be allowed to rebuild and rescue their land and resources and infrastructure before it's too late. they are destroying a piece of the world as well as all the people on it.

ReigningQueen · 01/08/2014 08:57

Honey badger do you think that's going to happen? I just can't see anything other than Israel's goal being achieved. I've not heard any influential voices speak out.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 08:58

Some did speak out reigningqueen, for example Bob Crow and Tony Benn :( Lib Dem Baroness Tongue is still speaking out.

I agree though, it's pathetic, so I'm trying to think of rays of hope:

More MPs are expressing disquiet. (Guardian story yesterday). My old MP is one of the only MPs who is a Tory to repeatedly speak out against Israel. My new MP is a weedy Fib Dem.

Comedians such as Jeremy Hardy and Mark Thomas have drawn attention to the situation (Jeremy Hardy v the Israeli army is worth a watch)

Camden has a twinning group with a town in Palestine.

Children's novel The Wall by William Sutcliffe is a real eye opener for teenage readers.

Hmm.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 09:02

Tonge not tongue! Autocorrect!

Time is running out for Gaza, yes. This is a critical time.

I know that this is truly pathetic but I still have the smallest scrap of hope that Obama might turn good on this (despite all evidence to the contrary) :((

TheHoneyBadger · 01/08/2014 09:05

a part of me thinks this is israels way of making sure it never happens. just in case the world was going to have sympathy with a people being slowly killed through lack of resources created by blockades and destruction and pollution by heavy weaponry they have to whip up some hamas bogeyman mess quickly so the world can't help or step in without being accused of 'supporting terrorism'.

don't know.

also that 'timing' of hamas having agreed to give over political power of gaza and with it create a more unified palestinian people AND eradicate israel's ability to call gaza a terrorist governed state or whatever is way way too telling.

the world is a very cynical place at the top it seems and human life is very, very cheap in the eyes of the powerful. when you think about it's a little disturbing to know how cheaply our governments consider civilian life don't you think? would be rather more reassuring to know you weren't being governed by people who are 'ok with' mass murder of women and children. doubt it suddenly turns into compassion and humanity when those women and children are closer to home.