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Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

956 replies

AndHarry · 31/07/2014 11:46

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines Wink

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

OP posts:
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5
donnie · 04/08/2014 17:18

OneStep if that report is accurate then that illustrates the point John Prescott was making the other day.

I think people are seeing now, finally, that there is no need to pretend Hamas is the enemy and Israel is the golden 'lamb surrounded by wolves' ( thanks LL - I know you are reading Wink) and that the Israeli agenda was never peace and will not be peace. How can it be, when they are intent on taking Palestinian land?

How does it work if you say to a people " we wish to make peace with you, but we still want to take control of your farms and land and appropriate them to OUR people? "

As I have said several times on this forum, the sustained programme of 'settlement' construction is a deliberate, calculated racist and colonialist initiative. It takes from the Palestinians and hands to the Israelis. The West Bank has been chipped away for decades and now it's Gaza.

And to the apologists who claim 'but Sharon evicted settlers in 2005 and gave Gaza back ' - bollocks. Israel has control over Gaza via borders, its airspace and its coast. What the hell is the bloody blockade, FGS?

Now we know what we did not know before - that there are vast natural gas reserves on the Gazan coast.......so we know now why Israel wants Gaza back. Thanks to the poster who provided that link a few days ago.

SamG76 · 04/08/2014 17:23

Timbucktoo/1 step closer - when you say "they" own the media (15:44 and 15:49), do you mean Israelis? I'm surprised you think the Israelis own the media world-wide. Do you mean Jews? I think that is plain antisemitism - in any case, very few Jewish newspaper owners in the UK.

OneStepCloser · 04/08/2014 17:23

It seems (shockingly) that it is as timbucktoo posted the same thing but from a different source. Words fail me.

Wannabestepfordwife · 04/08/2014 17:40

I agree with you about IS claig. Patrick Cockburn has written some really interesting articles on it www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/iraq-crisis-how-saudi-arabia-helped-isis-take-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html

goldvelvet · 04/08/2014 17:43

timbucktoo

That is shocking. I'm speechless.Sad Humanity has come to this once again.

sergeantmajor · 04/08/2014 17:54

timbucktoo and OneStepCloser ... which of the world's media companies do you believe Israel owns? Pray tell?

FrontierPsychiatrist You seem to be confusing Jewish theology with the modern secular Israeli nation. Certainly there are religious extremists in both populations, a small proportion amongst civilians. Religious extremists make up a small part of the Israeli parliament. Religious extremists make up the entirety of the Hamas totalitarian regime.*

  • The Jewish extremists are in the Israeli parliament due to proportional representation, the same system that allows the Israeli Arab minority to have a significant parliamentary voice.

** There are no other voices in the Gazan government. They executed all dissenters.

OneStepCloser · 04/08/2014 18:06

My post ^^ was a bit dickish, so have asked for it to be deleted.

somewheresafe · 04/08/2014 18:13

Really sad report on al jazeera about farmers risking their lives to tend their crops. Children picking peppers knowing they could die at any moment if there was an attack. They haven't tended their crops for a month but can't survive without selling the peppers in the market. The farmers were saying this is a slow death for them.

Al jazeera is a really brilliant news channel. Very balanced and diverse. It's been a joy to discover it these past few weeks.

OneStepCloser · 04/08/2014 18:19

Have you looked at the al jazeera website somewhere? Some really good, if very harrowing, reports on there, and a live blog.

goldvelvet · 04/08/2014 18:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

claig · 04/08/2014 18:39

Thanks Wannabestepfordwife, that is a very good Independent article about Isis by Patrick Coburn.

FrontierPsychiatrist · 04/08/2014 18:40

So, you're saying that Israelis don't care about the religious aspect, they just want the land. Fair enough. That I can accept.

But that the Palestinians, don't care about the land, they just want to take over the world, wipe out Jews and instil Islamism.

Riiiiiight. That's why all those half starved babies are so terrifying.

somewheresafe · 04/08/2014 18:49

m.truthdig.com/report/item/why_israel_lies_20140803

Really fantastic article about israels lies and inverted truth. How they distort reality and perpetuate lies to continue their genocide. Everything gets inverted so:

Killing children = caught in the crossfire
Destroying homes= demolition of terrorist homes
Bombing schools = hamas launch sites and human shields
Chris hedges writes this form of propaganda is doublethink. Doublethink uses “logic against logic” and “repudiate[s] morality while laying claim to it.” The Big Lie does not allow for the nuances and contradictions that can plague conscience. It is a state-orchestrated response to the dilemma of cognitive dissonance. The Big Lie permits no gray zones. The world is black and white, good and evil, righteous and unrighteous. The Big Lie allows believers to take comfort—a comfort they are desperately seeking—in their own moral superiority at the very moment they have abrogated all morality.

The Big Lie, as the father of American public relations, Edward Bernays, wrote, is limited only by the propagandist’s capacity to fathom and harness the undercurrents of individual and mass psychology. And since most supporters of Israel do not have a desire to know the truth, a truth that would force them to examine their own racism and self-delusions about Zionist and Western moral superiority, like packs of famished dogs they lap up the lies fed to them by the Israeli government. The Big Lie always finds fertile soil in what Bernays called the “logic-proof compartment of dogmatic adherence.” All effective propaganda, Bernays wrote, targets and builds upon these irrational “psychological habits.”

This is the world Franz Kafka envisioned, a world where the irrational becomes rational. It is one where, as Gustave Le Bon noted in “The Crowd: A Study of the Public Mind,” those who supply the masses with the illusions they crave become their master, and “whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.” This irrationality explains why the reaction of Israeli supporters to those who have the courage to speak the truth—Uri Avnery, Max Blumenthal, Noam Chomsky, Jonathan Cook, Norman Finkelstein, Amira Hass, Gideon Levy, Ilan Pappé, Henry Siegman and Philip Weiss—is so rabid. That so many of these voices are Jewish, and therefore have more credibility than non-Jews who are among Israel’s cheerleaders, only ratchets up the level of hate.

If only more Israelis would wake up and see that they are being fed a pack of lies and that they have lost all morality by siding with a racist and brutal regime.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 04/08/2014 18:52

Tweet from "IsraeliPM"

Does he really think we're still buying that shit??

Every single credible sauce from the UN to the reporters out there, to the (ahem) BBC have said there are no human shields in Gaza.

And that's why they've had to draw that cartoon. Whereas there is actual photographic evidence, I believe, of the Israeli army using children as human shields. Hmm

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 04/08/2014 19:04

Human Rights Watch: More Israeli war crimes

Israeli forces in the southern Gaza town of Khuza’a fired on and killed civilians in apparent violation of the laws of war in several incidents between July 23 and 25, 2014. Deliberate attacks on civilians who are not participating in the fighting are war crimes.

Seven Palestinians who had fled Khuza’a described to Human Rights Watch the grave dangers that civilians have faced in trying to flee the town, near the Israeli border, to seek safety in Khan Younis. These included repeated shelling that struck apparent civilian structures, lack of access to necessary medical care, and the threat of attack from Israeli forces as they tried to leave the area.

Human Rights Watch investigated several incidents between July 23 and 25 when, local residents said, Israeli forces opened fire on civilians trying to flee Khuza’a, but no Palestinian fighters were present at the time and no firefights were taking place.

DieselSpillages · 04/08/2014 19:07

there are only two economic routes for life to flow back into Gaza and, given the bitterness of this conflict, the route from Israel will not be the main one. Egypt holds the key to Gaza's economic integration to the rest of the global economy. Open the Rafah crossing, and the need for the tunnels disappears

The above is taken from this article in the Guardian.
So this probably explains why Israel want to keep a hold on Rafah.

SamG76 · 04/08/2014 19:47

Lists of supposed Jews in random positions. I'm appalled. Has the MN website been hacked by the online BNP?

halfdrunkcoffee · 04/08/2014 19:54

WRT your Hollywood comment goldvelvet: Yes but goldvelvet so what? For all you know they are all paid-up members of Jewish Voice for Peace. Not every Jewish person in the world agrees with the actions of the Israeli government.

MarmiteMania · 04/08/2014 20:00

Exactly what I was thinking SamG76. Not the voices of your run of the mill mumsnetters

sergeantmajor · 04/08/2014 20:03

Do you think it is likely or unlikely that there are any militants in Gaza?
Do you think it is likely or unlikely that all casualties are civilians?
Do you think it is likely or unlikely that the 3,000 missiles from Gaza launched themselves into Israel?
Do you ever wonder why the TV coverage never shows a single Hamas soldier? Not any?
Do you think that is because there are none? Likely or unlikely?

Here is the list of Gazan casualties from Al Jazeera as of a week ago:

Once duplicated names are eliminated, that makes it 73% of casualties being male, and 60% of male casualties being 18-38 year olds.

NB Not even one child or innocent civilian should ever be killed. And this is a distressing and long list of lives lost. But these figures suggest that men of fighting age represent the majority of deaths.

sergeantmajor · 04/08/2014 20:09

Did goldvelvet really just name and shame a list of private individuals for being Jewish?

somewheresafe · 04/08/2014 20:14

This isn't about Jews vs Arabs. Not at all. Jews and Jewish groups are amongst those organising and attending protests.

More and more people are criticising israel like David Attenborough who explains it better than others.

somewheresafe · 04/08/2014 20:15

David Attenborough

Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict
saadia · 04/08/2014 20:15

Agree that listing Jewish people working in Media and suggesting that they 'control Hollywood' is unacceptable.

sergeantmajor, are you suggesting that all male casualties between 18 and 38 deserve to be eliminated?

Backinthering · 04/08/2014 20:17

So the "terror tunnels" have been there for god knows how long, but now suddenly they're a thing?
Just saw on Ch4+1 news, some IDF guy being interviewed, sounding most indignant that "in the last two weeks" Hamas fighters had come up through the tunnels. Erm, that would be during the time that that the Israeli army was slaughtering the occupants of Israel and razing their homes!
Funny how for the preceding years, the Hamas bogeymen managed to refrain from popping out of those "terror tunnels" and slaughtering Israeli civilians en masse.