Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

HoneyBadger - I asked you before, where on earth are you getting this superior race stuff from?

Well done HoneyBadger on your boycott. Changing meds suppliers mustn't have been very easy but you did it!

We must all show determination and boycott. It will have an effect.

Hope the Jeremy Bowen removal is not true. I know that he has always been under pressure from lobbyists. The thing is, it has become blatantly obvious how low Israel will go to kill and maim chidren. People of Rafah apparently dont count as humans. World is tired of hearing how hard done by Israel is, it is just waking up to the reality that most of it was lies. People dont need the BBC for information, there ars much better news outlets that tell it how it is and i hope that the people will never be duped again.

Let's add some balance to this thread.
Here's some commentary from Col Richard Kemp, former British army commander who served in Afghanistan.
www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4570/gaza-civilian-casualties

Pro-Israeli posters, can I get your comments on an extract from Kofi Annan's memoirs? He's writing about the 2006 Lebanon War but do you think that it could also be applied to Gaza and Hamas? Here's what he says:

"On the day of the attack, I told Condoleeza Rice that I feared Israel would soon discover the limits to what could be achieved by force. There had to be a political agreement, a political understanding, I argued. Hizbollah was an organisation with deep roots in Lebanese society and represented many long-standing, popular local grievances. It could not be disarmed by military means alone."
"...[Ehud] Olmert's demands were, in principle, legitimate... That did not mean, however, that they were obtainable through war. Indeed, everythign we knew about the history of guerilla warfare - in the region and around the world - suggested that there would ultimately have to be a negotiated solution, no matter how long or relentlessly Israel struck Lebanese targets."
"Insisting on these conditions being met before even agreeing to a cessation of hostilities was a recipe for war without end."

The Archbishop of Canterbury was on Radio 4 this morning doing the Thought for the Day. I found his words very powerful. I can't give an exact quote but he said something like the only way to eliminate an enemy is to make them a friend. I think it's been proved through the decades, especially in this millenium's long campaigns against terrorism, that 'terrorism' cannot be defeated through bombing terrorists into smithereens. To this end, Operation Protective Edge works against Israel's interests. What is it that Israel needs to do to remove the conditions that create terrorists among the Palestinian population? What does the international community need to do? What do we need to do?

thanks - it was easy actually. the new med is giving me some side effects but presume that will just be the change and i'll get used to it.

where do i get the superior race stuff from? really???

i'll let someone, anyone, with a bit of common sense and a lot less exhaustion than me answer that one.

No HoneyBadger, if you're going to accuse a nation of believing itself to be a superior race, back it up.

Otherwise, by making sweeping unflattering generalisations about a nation, you don't look too good yourself.

If you are too exhausted to debate, please realise that this thread is open to people with different views to yourself.

Sergeant the Richard keep thread was discussed and dismissed a few threads back. I think we worked out that he has racist agendas and is not credible.

Can pro war people stop rehashing and regurgitating the same old bullshit propoganda. It's tiresome. Ffs do you actually believe the world is dumb enough to believe the idf are moral??

And please now don't accuse us of discounting any pro - israel sources. Credible sources have been discussed and debated at length.

Richard kemp evidence.

AndHarry - I think that Kofi Annan has a lot of wisdom about what can and can't be achieved by war.

And I think the Archbishop of Canterbury is wise to promote peace in his words, although a little naive as to what is in Israel's best interests.

Here is a link from a famous Israeli writer and longtime peacenik, interviewed by a German news site. He is against the ground offensive but very clear on the threat to his fellow citizens and the nature of the regime that Israel is fighting:

www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situation-for-israel/a-17822511

[[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1521438931418792&set=vb.100006580998399&type=2&theater not sure this link will work, but I've lost respect for Hillary Clinton parroting the discredited 'both sides need to xxxx' line. Only one side has been bombing and shelling schools, hospitals and refuges, Hillary! Only one side has used a lie about a 'missing soldier' to excuse destroying yet another town - a soldier who it turns out was killed by his own side, and they knew it.

www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1521438931418792&set=vb.100006580998399&type=2&theater link might work better if I put the brackets in...]]

Disappointed Hillary. You just toe the party line, don't you?

That business about the missing soldier was absolutely vile. Knowing he was killed by friendly fire, they used his 'disappearance' as justification to break the ceasefire.

The world's most moral army? God help us all.

Someone a while back asked how/why I think this will end.
I think Israel are digging themselves a MASSIVE hole.

As my mother always says, "it will all come out in the wash". It's coming out. And thanks to social media, in large, IMO.

Sorry, I have nothing more useful to add. This is constantly at the forefront of my mind, and I'm utterly sickened by the actions of the IDF. Heartscalded.

see i think the burden of proof is upon the people slaughtering and ethnically cleansing palestinians, not on those speaking up against the butchering of civilians.

if i'm exhausted i'll save my energies for where they're worthwhile. what i can do is to tell you to go back and read the other threads - all the answers are there and no, i'm not willing to repeat myself for the latest person justifying the murder of children.

Sergeant perhaps you can answer my answer as none of your friends seem to want to or be able to: what do you think of israel killing it's own soldier then lying to the world that he had been captured. And do you think israel were right to avenge his death buy killing another 200 palestinians?

Somewhere safe - apologies as this is a long thread so tried to look back through but has it been proven that Israel killed their own soldier? As I didn't see that on the news? Please can you post the evidence? Thanks

Somewhere, it's the clear implication of Israel's statement 'killed in battle'. If he'd been killed by Hamas, they would have said so loud and clear. Instead, they pretended he was missing as an excuse for further attacks on civilians.

There is no 'battle'. You aren't talking about two armies facing each other. You are talking about Israel bombing and shelling hospitals, schools and civilians, even thought they have repeatedly been given the co-ordinates by the UN.

as far as i'm aware there hasn't really been any 'fighting back' just running for lives. ergo it does seem quite likely that 'killed in battle' means killed by israeli troops given there are NO OTHER troops around.

AmI several links were posted a few pages back. Reputable sources. But I don't think anyone is disputing he was dead straight away.

What do you make of the decision of israel to state they would 'level' Gaza and the parading of the soldiers parents on TV asking for no stone to be left unturned. Don't you think the Israelis were lied to and that they used the soldiers death to escalate the violence. Many many innocent civilians died and are still buried under rubble because of that false claim by the idf.

In fact Rafa is reported to be a mass grave at the mmoment. Was the soldiers lice worth the live of hundreds of palestinians do you think? Is the idf accountable to anyone?

David Ward MP has started a petition:

davidward.org.uk/en/petition/we-demand-the-british-government-stands-up-for-the-palestinians-now

I'm sorry I am trying to listen to what people are saying on both sides but haven't seen any proof that Israel killed their own soldier? I will continue to look at the news stories and see what I can dig up but so far I have seen no proof.

Ok I am sorry as much as I'd love to continue to have a rational discussion with (some) of you - have started receiving some quite aggressive and threatening personal emails about this thread, which is very weird as I thought my email address and details were confidential?? I really hope no one at MN towers is leaking data for their own gains.

Anyway, I am bowing out now, am sure most of you will be happy about that as you don't really want to hear any other points of view except for your own.

Hope everyone finds peace!

edamsavestheday you say that only one side is bombing hospitals and schools. Actually both sides have. Hamas has shelled many civilian targets. A Hamas missile landed on an Israeli nursery. All the children had been evacuated to a bomb shelter moments before and there were no casualties. You may be disappointed that there have not been more Israeli civilian casualties in this conflict but their government has taken great measures to protect them.

The main difference is that Hamas declares that they are deliberately targeting civilians and that 100% of their missiles are aimed at civilian centres. (But you won't find much outrage about that on this thread). Israel declares that it is aiming at military targets and wishes to minimise civilian casualties. You may not believe them based on the numbers of civilian deaths.

I think it is weird that you think Israel was looking for justification for more violence and then invented a kidnapping. Especially considering that Israel could have flattened Gaza on day 1, without risking the lives of its own soldiers in a ground offensive, if its aim was to maximise Palestinian casualties.

I am more than willing to talk about the politics, to sympathise with the plight on both sides, and I feel terrible pain about those lost in the conflict on both sides. The coverage of this war has made it feel very close. But I do find that some of the theories banded about utterly bizarre. Inventing a kidnapping? Racial supremacy?

On both sides there are civilians that want to live a peaceful life. The Gazans have little chance under the grip of Hamas. Hamas just executed 30 opponents without trial and strung up their bodies from cranes. The people of the West Bank have a better chance, with leaders who will come to the negotiating table with something other than a request for the other side to annihilate itself.

very upsetting and graphic but I ask that the people who support what Israel are doing open this link and look at the pictures, you have blood on your hands if you think that this is just and fair, ''defence'' in YOUR name

These images won't make the media especially in Israel.

I have read that Israel killed the soldier as part of an operation that means they will never again allow a member of the IDF to be captured by Hamas as any sort of bargaining tool, and instead they would shoot him.

here