Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

Rafah- anyone else wondering what is going on in Rafah? Looking at the map it's close to both Egypt and the sea. Is Israel opening a passage to the sea and attempting to change the border?

Somewheresafe
Again, the palestinians living inside of Israel are israeli arabs will full rights. They have political parties, they sit in Parliament, some serve in the army (they don't have to but still volunteer), they are judges in the supreme court, they work in all professions.
The Palestinians living in the West Bank are living under the Palestinian Authority who govern under israeli occupation. They are not Israeli citizens and so they do not have equal rights.
Hamas claims that the jews have stolen all of Palestinian land from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, i.e. all of israel, even that from the 1948 borders. That is the same as saying we want to kill all Israelis. Basically they are saying Israel has no right to exist.

Springheeled
Rafah is controlled by Egypt. They decide when to open or close it.

Israel is currently obliterating Rafah and has excluded it from its so called 'humanitarian' 'truce' tomorrow. Why? Land grab.

QnBoudi
I have watched many "whistlblowers". That is the beauty of Israel being a democratic country - people have the freedom of speech. Unfortunately you don't here many "whistleblowers" from Gaza. 20 such people spoke out this week and were executed.
Again, no one wants to see civilians die but Hamas fires rockets from within civilian population. What would you do? Please tell me.

Springheeled
No you are wrong. Rafah is the only crossing NOT controlled by Israel. Egypt is keeping those gates closed. Go talk to them.

If Israel is democratic why has whistleblowers Eran Efrati been threatened? Why did the idf censor news about them killing their own soldier?

Why are protestors in tel aviv arrested?

There is a news and electricity blackout in Rafa. Hundreds dead. Many children. It's disturbing that thus is happening. Imagine if this was Wales.

Duvsha - I speak from experience about the treatment of Arabs in Israel so I don't need you to clarify for me thanks.

You cannot have it both ways.

You accuse Hamas of not playing by the rules but do not notice that Israel is flouting the Geneva convention and targeting civilians and detaining, torturing and trying children. Israel is committing war crimes.

Whistleblowers from Gaza? ? Is this a joke? 20 murdered for whistleblowing? Where is the source?

I think you might find Gazans were busy trying not be bombed, burned, sniper shot this week. Don't think they had time to whistleblow.

Chris Gunness from unwra today: we told the idf 33 times there were civilians in the building but they still bombed it.

somewheresafe
you can read about eran efrati and speak to him openly in israel. his organisation "breaking silence" operates within israel and can say whatever they like. but people don't have to necessarily agree with them. just like i don't agree with you and you don't agree with me.

and imagine if england was hit by 13000 rockets in 9 years from wales. there would not be any wales today , i guarantee you.

and i speak from experience as well about treatments of arabs in israel so i think you might need a bit of clarification. you're welcome.

Can you honestly not see the hypocrisy of your argument?

saadia
israel is not targeting civilians. each one of the 13000 rockets fired by hamas was targeted at civilians only.
the israeli army has done more than any other army in the world to avoid civilian casualties. Any military person will tell you that letting people know where you are about to hit is the worst thing an army can do. Israel has told civilians up to 4 hours in advance exactly where they will be targeting. No army has ever done that in the history of warfare.
If hamas would not fire from within civilian population there would be no civilian deaths.

Duvsha - source for the 20 Gaza whistleblowers?

Eran Efrati has confirmed in many interviews him and his group are openly threatened. So he can't say what he likes as you state.

England would never occupy another land. We have been under attack in the past. And we did not commit war crimes or murder children.

I simply don't believe you, and neither do the independent news sources.

And our information is also contradicted by UN sources in Gaza.

'Your' information

No civilian deaths if not for Hamas? Right this is where I stop engaging with you. Remember that your government have killed thousands of people. Blame who you want. The whole world saw the truth.

What we have is one of the strongest armies in the world, supplied by the US, fighting against people who are being deliberately malnourished and denied medical supplies.

somewheresafe

www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Report-Hamas-executes-alleged-spies-shoots-protesters-in-Gaza-369331
They quote the Palestinian Press.

Eran Efrati is still talking and he's still operating and he's still fighting his cause and he's still saying everything he wants despite being threatened.

I think you're forgetting the british army levelled Dresden in Germany in WW2 (and they didn't give any pre warning to the civilians there...). And Great Britian had the biggest colonial empire in history, including Palestine itself... so they are pretty good at occupation. One of the best actually.

AreYouIndecisive - Gaza's flattening depends, I suppose, on what you mean by 'flattened'. I have 2 questions really, then.

Vis a vis the restraint you think Israel has shown, is this proportionate to the damage and devastation caused by Hamas attacks? If so, please can you direct me to some of the evidence for the oft-mentioned 3000+ Hamas rockets; I confess I haven't seen much with my own eyes, even if only via the internet. As you know, we suffer here from a degree of partiality in terms of press coverage, but I would like to be fully informed. As an aside, there is clearly a very powerful Israeli PR machine so why do you think it isn't taking the opportunity to counter anti-Israeli rhetoric by publicising this proof?

Secondly, I'd be interested to know what you think Israel's objectives are, i.e. at what point will the 'defensive' action stop? Is it when the strip IS totally 'flattened', assuming that is your definition?

somewheresafe
tell me when did civilians in gaza die since israel left the gaza strip in 2005 not as a result of hamas instigating fire at israel? please, i would love to know!
if you don't want to engage with me that is your loss. this is the problem with the middle east and people who support any side without listening to the other. this makes you an extremist like everyone else. shame on you.

duvsha I think by most people's definition the Israeli's did not leave the Gaza Strip in 2005. They did make their settlers leave though which was good luck for them wasn't it, I mean imagine they'd accidentally gotten caught up in operation Cast Lead just a few years later.

Debunking the myth that the Gaza Strip isn't occupied by Israel Boston Globe: "Israeli-imposed buffer zones.. now absorb nearly 14 percent of Gaza's total land and at least 48 percent of total arable land. Similarly, the sea buffer zone covers 85 percent of the maritime area promised to Palestinians in the Oslo Accords, reducing 20 nautical miles to three."Human Rights Watch: "Israel also continues to control the population registry for residents of the Gaza Strip, years after it withdrew its ground forces and settlements there."B'Tselem, 2013: "Israel continues to maintain exclusive control of Gaza's airspace and the territorial waters, just as it has since it occupied the Gaza Strip in 1967."

Hasbara trolls are another reason I pity Israelis at the moment. Totally brainwashed by pay per post students.

QnBoudi
The number of rockets is documented by the debris of each one of them. You want more evidence - my family sitting in bomb shelters, some of my friends living in shelters for years. Am I lying about that?

The proportionality? Again - if Israel hadn't invested money in the Iron Dome and bomb shelters each of these 3000 rockets would have hit more than 1 civilian at a time thereby causing a significantly higher death toll on the israeli side. Would it have made you feel better if more than 3000 israelis dies as well. Is that more fair?

Israel has already taken out most of the troops on the ground in the dense populated areas as the known terror tunnels are almost all destroyed. Now it is just about dealing with the rocket firing. Today over 90 rockets were fired into Israel and the airforce is dealing with that.

The israeli government has made it clear it does not want to stay in Gaza. All it wants is to stop the rocket firing so that everyone (and i mean everyone) can go back to rebuilding the damage and living without violence.

There is no globally agreed definition of terrorism. According to the UN in 1994 it is:
"Criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or any other nature that may be invoked to justify them"

I think that describes what the Israeli government has been up to in Gaza, no? I think we can all see who the bigger terrorist here is.