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Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

956 replies

AndHarry · 31/07/2014 11:46

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines Wink

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

OP posts:
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5
SnowinBerlin · 03/08/2014 21:56

Israel left Gaza in 2005. (Sorry I have to repeat myself but it's not registering).

But blockades it as it borders it completely (bar the Egyptian crossing). Which is why a year after withdrawal the government boasted about restricting food into Gaza and 'putting Gaza on a diet'.

The British government never attempted to starve Catholics, so why you are a big fan of the IRA but not Hamas, I don't quite know.

duvsha · 03/08/2014 21:58

Halfdrunkcoffee
I am sad to read the article but other than this very talented author there are still 1.68 million Arab Israelis.

goldvelvet · 03/08/2014 21:59

halfdrunkcoffee There are a few video interviews on youtube
one is titled the youth of Israel what is your message to the youth of Gaza and visa versa

and most of the messages are of wanting peace and wishing each other well.

It's just a guy stopping kids in the street

goldvelvet · 03/08/2014 22:01

That wasn't in answer to your question to Duvsha but just thought you may find it interesting

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:03

SnowinBerlin
I am not a fan of the IRA. Anyone who can put a bomb in a civilian place and blow it up for the sake of pure civilian terror without any military benefit is vile and reprehensible.

The blockade only started in 2007 after Hamas violently kicked out Fattah (what is the Palestinian authority). This blockade was put on by Israel and Egypt together by the way because Hamas was now in control and couldn't guarantee the safety and security.

halfdrunkcoffee · 03/08/2014 22:03

Thanks goldvelvet

Hakluyt · 03/08/2014 22:08

Just wanted to share this....ll.l

Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict
goldvelvet · 03/08/2014 22:09

Duvsha do you think there could be peace in your generation?

I know in these things there's always a rocky stage where people don't quite know what to do and their are still underlying issues but over time it's hard to think it was ever that way.

This is a ridiculous example I know but like the segregation between blacks and whites and today you can't even fathom that was once the norm.

I imagine at first it was odd and people didn't quite know where to place themselves and there were underlying issues, heck today there are still a very small minority that still believe in segregation but on the whole society has moved on.

SnowinBerlin · 03/08/2014 22:10

I would support my child's decision to marry whomever they like. You can't control love.

Israel forbids the marriage of Jews and non-Jews within Israel's borders, and also bans Jews who are products of adulterous relationships marrying anyone at all.

(*although mixed-religion couples can elope abroad, have a civil marriage and return and try and have it recognised).

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 03/08/2014 22:10

The irony, hakluyt....

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:11

Gold velvet.
They would not but who do they need to turn to for that? I live in the UK now so I ten to the UK government if I have a problem with my quality of life. They would need to turn to Hamas.
This is what is so frustrating for me. No one is asking Hamas why it has not reneged in their violent charter. No one is asking where has all the money gone a these years? Millions of donation money to the Palestinian people - where is it? All Hamas needs to do is say we don't want to destroy Israel anymore and it will all be over. Please believe me.

I believe that the average Palestinian living in Gaza wants a peaceful life. But they are controlled by an extremist jihadist organisation that is holding them hostage for their own terroristic views. As long as Hamas is there they will never have a good quality of life.

Look at the West Bank - yes they love under occupation (which I disagree with) but they have much better lives. You know why - they are no longer violent. They don't talk about annihilation of Israel. It's that simple. Eventually there will be peace and the occupation will end but Gaza is a whole different kettle of fish as long as Hamas is there.

goldvelvet · 03/08/2014 22:12

Israel Foreign Min seem to have forgotten that with-out bombs people don't die.... They have a duty of care to protect civilians above all else.

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:15

Snowinberlin
Marriage in Israel is governed by jewish law so a Jew cannot marry a non-Jew in Israel in a multi faith ceremony as there are no secular marriages. This is true for Jews who are not orthodox either by the way. If they want to marry in Israel they have to do so in an orthodox ceremony. However the State of Israel's home office isn't run by the jewish laws so all marriages are recognised. Even interfaith ones. As a secular Jew I am outraged by it and hopefully one day that will be changed.

wordsmithsforever · 03/08/2014 22:17

halfdrunkcoffee and duvsha: That was a very sad article I agree - very interesting. Do either of you (or anyone else) know why he says he cannot take his children to day camps or to parks with their Jewish friends? (He says he lives in Jerusalem.) Is it not safe for Arabs or is it social pressure?

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:18

Goldvelvet.
You need to see how many times the army had stopped missions because there were civilians around. Fighting from within civilian population is a war crime. But Hamas is a terrorist organisation so it doesn't need to answer to international law. You will never be able to take them to The Hague.

SnowinBerlin · 03/08/2014 22:19

Look at the West Bank - yes they love under occupation (which I disagree with) but they have much better lives. You know why - they are no longer violent.

The trouble with the West Bank is that the illegal settlements are continuously expanding, and so the illegal occupation tightens its grip in a push for a Greater Israel. I'm not sure that being supine/beaten down is having any long-term benefit. It seems like two dogs getting a beating from a cruel master, and the one that's biting back gets a beating, but the one that's cowering is just delaying the inevitable.

BTW - while I disagree with you entirely, I'm glad that you are willing to put the other side as an Israeli.

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:22

Wordsmithsforever - It is very safe but I'm sure he had encountered situations that made him uncomfortable. I now feel uncomfortable walking around in London with all the latest "hitter was right" slogans held up in protest rallies. A friend of mine who spoke Hebrew in a supermarket with her kids got a remark from the man next to her "you are everywhere now - get out of here".
Like I said, there are 1.68 million Israeli Arabs. They live and work and some even serve in the army.
I am very sad to hear that the author feels so uncomfortable he wants to leave. But again, it's one case, not the norm.

goldvelvet · 03/08/2014 22:22

Duvsha so do you think that the average palestinian wants it and in general the Jews do but the Israeli government and Hamas will never allow it to happen (peace)?

So the only answer is to fight until one hugely outnumbers the other?
We all know who will win....for a start only one has an army.

In my eyes most people just want a quiet and fair life and to live with-out fear. Which I can only see happening if they integrate.

SnowinBerlin
your post confirms that the Israeli government want to keep the two separate at all costs..

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:26

SnowinBerlin
I am against the occupation in the West Bank. I am against the settlements. And there are many more like me in Israel. Gaza is a different story. Even the Palestinian Authority don't like Hamas. It's hard for foreigners to hear but I can hear the subtext. If you listen carefully they are not supporting Hamas. They understood a long time ago that violence is not the answer. I think that in this recent conflict the PA has proven it is part of the solution so hopefully this will reopen the way to peace talks. If the PA would take over Gaza we would all feel much better and then I would see light at the end of the tunnel.

goldvelvet · 03/08/2014 22:29

Duvsha I'm actually ashamed to say that a few days ago in my head I was thinking god I hate Jews. Upon seeing image after image of slaughter.

Then I pulled myself back because I am not a racist. I re-evaluated what I was actually angry about and it wasn't the jewish faith or the race but the government which governs them and what it's feeding in propaganda to it's people.

But I think people are so disgusted they can group hate at group of people quite easily. And unless they process the feelings and direct them in a positive manner they are no better than the people they hate.

duvsha · 03/08/2014 22:29

Goldvelvet
Again I honestly think the problem is the lack of understanding of who Hamas is. It is not a regular "other side". It is not Britain vs Germany. It is the US vs ISIS. If they would say "we reneg on our charter that calls for the distraction of Israel" then we got ourselves a starting point!
Hamas is a violent jihadist organisation. It's death or nothing else.

Sabrinnnnnnnna · 03/08/2014 22:30

Why duvsha is wrong

somewheresafe · 03/08/2014 22:51

I'm. Sorry but it is very disingenuous to suggest palestinians are treated equally in Israel or the west bank. This is a myth perpetuated by racists trying to look good and fair. Just as the white slave owners did during the share cropping years in America.

The truth is that Arabs are treated appallingly.

Hamas have declared many many times that they do not have an issue with jews. But they have a massive problems with occupiers.

There was a very good video linked in the earlier thread from the founder of hamas who categorically stated that jews are not their enemy but those stealing their land are. Can you understand how they feel?

QnBoudi · 03/08/2014 23:04

Duvsha - You note the PA understand that 'violence is not the answer', so what's the justification for flattening Gaza, killing, maiming, injuring and generally traumatising thousands? Have you watched the talk by the whistleblowing soldier posted earlier btw. It was extremely moving, and very disturbing.

AmIIndecisive · 03/08/2014 23:12

Qn - if the IDF wanted to flatten Gaze they could have done it in a day, they could have destroyed Hamas in a little over a week but they have purposely tried to lessen civilian casualties.

Any other democratic nation protecting themselves while under attack from a terrorist organisation would not have been judged as harshly.

Anyone with a heart would be upset by what is doing on but the enemy to Gaza is not Israel it is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organisation and does not play by normal rules.