Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

duvsha - I think the UK DOES know what it is like to be targeted by terror. Have you not heard of the IRA? And 7/7? We lived through an IRA bombing campaign that lasted almost two decades. We managed to do that without slaughtering Catholic civilians in Northern Ireland. Oddly enough.

So what you are saying it's ok to kill hundreds of people regardless if they pose any threat to you because one of them might be a member of Hamas.

The other lives are just casualties in your governments wish to protect you?

The IRA was fighting for freedom. Hamas is not fighting for freedom. Gaza was freed in 2005 when Israel left the strip unilaterally. Has was voted into power in democratic elections. It has then spent the entire time in power arming itself to fight Israel, not to built a strong future for its people.

Duvsha.. What answer do you have to Israelis chanting and singing that schools aren't needed in Gaza anymore because there are no children? There is video evidence of Israel's triumphalism so it can't be denied from Israel the oppressor.
And what about wordsmiths link with the marches from countries all over the world protesting about Israel's onslaught on Gaza? Just click on it and look, it will take you a while to scroll down and see the mass repugnance at what is going on. How many times do you see such worldwide condemnation, are all those millions of people wrong and you right? I think not.

Duvsha I feel deep sorrow for you because you inhabit a country the rest of the world are looking at in horror.

Can I just ask why do YOU think the Hamas are angry about and fighting for? Why do they launch the rockets? Because we all know that they are going to be intercepted? Do you think a minority of people pose a real threat to Israel and in your eyes what do you think would stop them firing rockets?

Duvsha are you saying that Gaza is in no way controlled by Israel? Because if you are you are information is incorrect on so many levels.

Dvusha maybe you should be looking at what your govemment is doing to the people of Gaza for them to be resisting in this way. Do you think its right for Israel to keep them prisoner in a tiny scrap of land, surrounding them from land, sea and air with restricted access to water and food and then periodically slaughter a large number of women and children beacause they resist?
Have you looked at the Hamas demands, what do you find unreasonable about them? here they are again for you:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip

Again, you are missing the point. It's not 2 armies fighting each other and obeying the laws of war. This is an army fighting a terrorist organisation that believes in martyrdom and glorifies death. They have no problem having their own people die. They talk about meeting Allah and 73 virgins waiting for them in heaven. It is extremely horrible to see any INNOCENT civilians lose their life in a conflict they never meant to be part of but when your own government use you as shield and bait shouldn't you be crying out at Hamas first?

'Can I ask why aren't media repotting on all the protests supporting Gaza.'

Probably because they don't want to encourage protests. Similarly I can't rememer hearing what some Latin American leaders have said on BBC News, but it has been in blogs on the net.

Welcome to Mumsnet Duvsha. Can I suggest you watch this short video - see jewishvoiceforpeace.org/content/israeli-palestinian-conflict-101

duvsha You know to protect your people your government could always get the fuck off the Palestinian land that they illegally occupy and lift the blockade that has left Gaza an open air prison with the people on the edge of starvation. You would do well to remember that Israel was founded on Zionist terrorism before screaming about terrorism from others. And by the way I think this counts as mention of ethnic cleansing.
electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

Justasecond-
In 2005 Israel left the Gaza Strip. It removed every single jewish settler and left all the agriculture, green houses and successful business behind for the Palestinians to pick up. There were Palestinian workers who came into Israel, there were investments in helping the Palestinians built their future. One year later Hamas came into power, an organisation that was built on the sole basis of destroying Israel. They destroyed everything that Israel left behind, increased the rocket firing and used the construction material given by Israel itself (they found the cement bags in the terror tunnels marked with Israeli logos) to built an armed Gaza Strip completely neglecting their own people. So forgive me when I'm not that keen on them bringing anything they want into the strip.
Just as an FYI, throughout this whole conflict Israel transferred 200 trucks daily to the Gaza Strip full of humanitarian aid.
And finally, yes I accept all the demands put forth. But in return I want this:

1. Recognise the State of Israel and it's right to exist.
2. Stop firing rockets.
3. Stop building terror tunnels.
4. Disarm.

Done. Now I'll shake hands.

[#t=45 one of your soldiers speaks out]]

Israel was not founded illegally and if you claim that then you must have slept through your history lesson. In 1947 there were 600k Jews living I. What the british called Palestine. The UN voted to split the land and give a portion to the Jews and a portion to the Arabs (they were not called Palestinians then). The Jews said ok, the Arabs said no way and he war started. What Jews won. Get over it.

Duvsha do palestinians living in Israel have the same rights as Jewish Israelis?

Fantastic. An IRA supporting Israeli joining Mumsnet to lecture us why Palestinians are baaad [Hmmm].

How kind of duvsha join MN to grace us with the usual lies propaganda.

Right with you, wise Mumsnetters. Stop the slaughter in Gaza.

Devsha who if it was split 50/50 why is it no longer that way? Did Israel take more than they were supposed to? Displacing thousands of Palestinians causing them to be refugees? Should they just get over it.
Shit happens right?

Duvsha please read the first thread where points like yours were discussed and debated.

Al jazeera is reporting that a massacre had taken place in jabalya.

duvsha, have you ever heard of Irgun and the Stern Gang? Perhaps they were not mentioned in your history lessons.

edam Actually the British Army killing innocent civilians marching for their civil rights on what became known as Bloody Sunday pretty much fuelled the rise of the Provisional IRA. Whilst that was an awful action, and obviously both sides did terrible things in the subsequent 'troubles', Israel's atrocities in Gaza are on another level. Don't wish to derail with NI stuff but couldn't let that one go.

Jews won. Get over it.

I think this sums up the problem. No one is objecting to you having your own country - and most people would accept '67 borders, not even the original ones. But the 'ha ha we can dominiate the Palestinians, as they are weak, but evil and love-death-more-than-their-children-and-force-us-to-kill-them' rhetoric sticks in the craw.

On a serious note.

What is it like to be a palestinian living in Israel today? Are they equal?
If you were to wake up one morning in the body of a Palestinian do you think you would experience the same quality of life as you do being a Jew in Israel?

Gold velvet -
Palestinians have equal rights to Jews in Israel. They are equal citizens who also have representation in government, in the judicial system and every walk of life.
The split suggested by the UN was rejected by the Arabs. The war finished with the boarders pre-1967 so yes, more than what was suggested. It was a war. People were fighting for their existence. After the war ended with a cease fire Ben Gurion asked the neighbouring countries to talk peace and come to an agreement on borders. They all failed.