Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

I wouldn't go back to beit lahiya on the say so of the IDF. Doesn't look to be much of it left anyhow.

I've just watched this interview with Yousef Munayyer and thanks to runes for recommending the website upthread. I had a feeling he would have something interesting to say if only that vile Sean bloke from Fox News would have let him get a word in edgeways! See www.democracynow.org/2014/8/1/recipe_for_lasting_ceasefire_lifting_israeli if anyone's interested.

Ed milibands criticism is a just a teensy tiny itsy weeny bit hypocritical.

Good to see the government finally acknowledging the receipt of thousands of emails on this. I've not been getting any responses to mine. Baffling baffling silence from our elected representatives. Self serving bastards.

Have to withdraw from my pension scheme now cos I will NOT invest in BAe. Sorry for rant but have been in tears so many times today. Can't cope with the anger and helpless frustration. Heaven knows how the real victims do.

"OR at least have the decency to admit you are not a democracy and don't give a flying fuck about being one because in fact you are an apartheid regime that believes in racial superiority and the right of one group to oppress and torture another for their own greed and egomania and what is looking increasingly like actual stone cold pleasure"

Honeybadger - you may loathe Israel's military actions but the fact is that it is a democracy. The fact is that Israeli Arabs are full citizens with full rights and the full protection of the law. That Israeli Arabs (c.20%) are fully represented in the Israeli parliament and judiciary. And that as they have proportional representation this representation actually means a significant voice in parliament. You can verify these facts anywhere.

It is an insult to black South Africans to draw an analogy with an apartheid regime.

Where on earth did you get the racial superiority thing from?

Your remarks about greed, egomania and pleasure seem equally random. Do you not think that 3,000 missiles in the past few months may not have had something to do with sending in the troops?

sergeantmajor: As a South African, I think Nelson Mandela would disagree with you there.

Nelson Mandela — 'We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians.'

The fact that settlers can seize an Arab's house on the west bank whilst the army stands on and protects those settlers speaks of apartheid to me I'm afraid to say.

Do you truly believe that Israel can't be better than this? I would like to see an Israel where everyone's human rights are respected. I don't like the 3,000 Hamas rockets any more than you do but if you occupy and oppress people they will resist.

sergeatnmajor that's 3,000 missiles firing at an iron dome that's just had 225m US dollars extra funding to strengthen it (as of last Friday). It's like chucking a pebble at a strengthened shield. As the casualties prove.

I've just watched an interview on Democracy Now with an esteemed Palestinian human rights attorney. It is very interesting (although harrowing) watching. He says, as a 60 year old Gazan, he has never seen attacks of this scale before. I fear the Israeli government is sliding to the extreme right, to the detriment of everyone involved. See www.democracynow.org/2014/8/1/gazan_human_rights_lawyer_pleads_to

Also just seen doctors on Channel 4 describing children waking up in intensive care to find their entire family is dead - literally no family to care for them anymore. Every parent's nightmare.

Honey is right, either allow them to live free or kill them all. No wonder they keep.chanting free me or kill me at the protests in the west bank.

Family in Israel tell me emotions are running high. On the one hand they want to bring ground troops out due to the higher than anticipated deaths of idf murderers, but the family of the missing soldier want the ground operation to continue. Surely someone should explain to them that their son has probably been killed by the idf aerial attacks which flattened Rafa yesterday? Surely his family feel avenged enough having heard about 200 innocent civilians have been killed in revenge including a 2 month old baby?

I'm at screaming point with the apologists, governments, UN, israel. How many will die tonight?

Words yesterday sky news reported that there are many many children on stretchers in the hospital and no one knows who they are. They have no one. They are too shocked to speak. It's unbearable to watch and see.

One woman survived her entire family. Her husband, parents,, siblings, 5 children all killed. She survived but wanted to be dead. She has no one. No home. No life to return to.

And then somewhere, you add that to the fact that only 5% of piped water is now drinkable, the non-functioning sewage, the lack of food, no electricity and the continuing bombing. It must be hell on earth.

'Netanyahu warns US not to try to force Israel into a Gaza ceasefire

Israel PM tells US ‘not to ever second-guess me again’

'In a phone call with US ambassador to Israel Dan Shapiro, Netanyahu vented his anger, according to people familiar with the call.

Netanyahu told Shapiro the Obama administration was “not to ever second-guess me again” and that Washington should trust his judgment on how to deal with Hamas, according to the people. Netanyahu added that he now “expected” the US and other countries to fully support Israel’s offensive in Gaza, according to those familiar with the call. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to discuss the matter by name.'

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/netanyahu-warns-us-israel-gaza-ceasefire-second-guess

Just loggedback in as watching Sky for days and Andrew Wilson doing a great job but Whatever happend to Tim Marshall Sky? He always gave great balanced analyses of ME issues. Miss him. Lisa Holland a poor replacement.
Anyone know?
Gone again.

the Israeli PR playbook Apologies if someone has already posted this on one of the very long threads but interesting reading.

Net warns the US? Why, whats he gonna do? If they dont do as he says?
He does half fancy himself. Arrogance and hubris will always bring one down. (not to mention a vicious warmongering personality)
Urrgh

www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Into-the-fray-Why-Gaza-must-go-368862

Another despicable viewpoint coming out of israel. They must have targeted the infrastructure, homes, buildings so Gaza becomes uninhabitable. Then they can go in and land grab, rebuild and settle. Maybe it was all about gas reserves after all? Mentioned in the earlier threads but not given much thought by me. But it's all making sense now. Never before have israel obliterated every home and building to this extent. This is on an unseen scale.

No wonder earlier today IsraHell was trending on twitter.

This thread is pretty much the only thing that makes me feel that sanity prevails, and keeps the fury at bay.

A good but very little protest in my local area today. All faiths represented, great speeches.

Qu- if I buy a load of PSC boycott campaign stickers and go about local businesses, would that be a crime? I feel my hands are very tied as to the extent of how far I can protest- for example, I can't use twitter. But gosh how I would love to tweet!

'Maybe it was all about gas reserves after all?'

No, I think it is about much more than gas reserves.

This is an interview with Jewish socialist Moshe Machover.

"This is part of the reason that Netanyahu is so adamant about resolving the Iranian issue by war, rather than diplomacy or siege; he wants a full out war, because whatever the actual consequences of the war regarding Iran, whether it will end Iran’s nuclear program—and by the way there is no proof that Iran is committed to production of nuclear weapons– the opportunity will present itself for ethnic cleansing in the West Bank that will be a far more important result for him and far more desirable, than anything he can achieve with Iran itself.

What likelihood do you assign such a scenario?

I’m not a betting man. But I do read the Israeli press. I don’t think they have made the final decision themselves. Of course there is a flipside. It’s not guaranteed to succeed. Secondly, Israel may suffer casualties in such a war. It’s a costly thing. Of course, if the casualties are not too high, then an achievement of ethnic cleansing from a Zionist point of view will justify Israeli casualties, because that will guarantee the survival of the Jewish Zionist state for the foreseeable future, by ending the ethnic peril. But it’s a gamble."

mondoweiss.net/2012/07/netanyahu-seeks-war-with-iran-so-he-can-ethnically-cleanse-the-west-bank-machover.html

Naomi Wolf in Facebook is doing amazing work on this. I feel sick reading that Jerusalem Post article. Really really gutted and sick. Who will ever hold them to account?

Yes somewhere, it (gas intentions) also accounts for the otherwise bizarre restrictions on the fishermen.

claig that is extremely chilling but it does fit with what is happening in terms of decimating the Palestinian population as much as possible. The 'blame Hamas' reasoning is not fooling anyone except the most moronic and Israel has virtual carte blanche to kill at will.

And the gas is only all theirs if all the Palestinians are wiped out. West bank will be next. Probably plotting provocative actions there as I write. Perhaps a few more kids going to get kidnapped or burned.

Yes, destruction of buildings etc and power plant will make it difficult to live there.

This is an article by the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset

"Ultimatum – One warning from the Prime Minister of Israel to the enemy population, in which he announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. Hamas may unconditionally surrender and prevent the attack."

...

"According to polls, most of the Arabs in Gaza wish to leave. Those who were not involved in anti-Israel activity will be offered a generous international emigration package. Those who choose to remain will receive permanent resident status. After a number of years of living in Israel and becoming accustomed to it, contingent on appropriate legislation in the Knesset and the authorization of the Minister of Interior, those who personally accept upon themselves Israel’s rule, substance and way of life of the Jewish State in its Land, will be offered Israeli citizenship."

www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U91ZXqJ0yic