Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

Dear god claig

The way these people think!!

Claig didn't you post that link earlier in the thread? It's horrible but not actual policy.

Qnboudi what did you mean about Ed Miliband - that last month he said he defended Israel's right to defend itself?

Yes, I posted same article but didn't post those quotes from it. It is not policy, but we don't really know what the policy is.

It does explain the total scorched earth policy. Israel has never before destroyed so much so quickly. It's uninhabitable. They have ethnically cleansed and relocated in accordance with their plan. There is a very different feel to this offensive. It's all out obliteration. So sad to see schools and universities bombed. Israel are absolute tyrants to do this.

Will they get away with it?

Why is the world terrified of israel?

Their first reason for going in was the 3 teens, then Hamas ineffective rockets, then tunnels. There seems to be no bona fide reason for any of their actions. This photo is doing the rounds on twitter. How very true.

'Why is the world terrified of israel? '

Isn't it strange how all our puppets issue threats to Putin and Russia,a nuclear superpower, about his "last chance" etc but don't admonish Netanyahu in any way.

I've been following these threads and found them useful and insightful. I've also been following the situation in Palestine for some years. It has sometimes struck me that Israel has, from a political standpoint, really achieved something for itself in pursuading a large number of Western nations to label Hammas as 'terrorists'. Once such a label is applied it places right on Israel's side.

As has been pointed out on this and the previous threads, the definition of 'terrorist' is mutable to the point where even the UN cannot provide a globally agreed definition. Some people talk about Israel's right to defend itself, but not Gaza's. From the point of view of Hammas they are simply defending their people. In the face of such an onslaught why should they not do so? Why is the palestinian's right to do so less than that of Israel's? It is their land, even the US acknowledges this.

I think that the journalist and writer Robert Fisk phrases it much more eloquently than I could (taken from his book 'The Great War for Civilisation', p 464, 2006 paperback edition), apologies if this has been posted before and I have missed it:

"Terrorism" is a word that has become a plague on our vocabulary, the excuse and reason and moral permit for state-sponsored violence— our violence—which is now used on the innocent of the Middle East ever more outrageously and promiscuously. Terrorism, terrorism, terrorism. It has become a full stop, a punctuation mark, a phrase, a speech, a sermon, the be-all and end-all of everything that we must hate in order to ignore injustice and occupation and murder on a mass scale. Terror, terror, terror, terror. It is a sonata, a symphony, an orchestra tuned to every television and radio station and news agency report, the soap-opera of the Devil, served up on prime-time or distilled in wearyingly dull and mendacious form by the right-wing “commentators” of the American east coast or the Jerusalem Post or the intellectuals of Europe. Strike against Terror. Victory over Terror. War on Terror. Everlasting War on Terror. Rarely in history have soldiers and journalists and presidents and kings aligned themselves in such thoughtless, unquestioning ranks.

Hi all, just popping in as I am finding it all so horrific so reading your often interesting posts gives me a bit of a vent - before that I was looking on Twitter but think I need to stop as my heart is racing and I keep wanting to cry. (Not that that in itself is especially a hardship, but the frustration and anger I feel is overwhelming.)

On a slight, sort of, tangent I watched the BBC news tonight - fucks sake! In comparison to the Channel 4 / Twitter stuff it makes it look more like a dusty spat in the desert.

Yes israel is a very clever monopoliser of words.

For those in Israel defending it's actions, I am shocked at the level of brainwashing going on. Can you not see the truth? Where is your humanity? You, we, are the great grandchildren of holocaust victims and survivors. The extreme right wing movement in Israel should be terrifying now not reassuring you.

I have been working through the Goldstone Report this evening, link here for anyone else interested: www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf

It is shocking to read the catalogue of crimes committed by Israel.

I'm interested to know what supporters of Israel have to say about this report?

Somewheresafe if you look at Paul Mason on Twitter he has some stuff from the Jerusalem Times which is a very distorted view of the situation in Gaza

I am feeling incredibly frustrated at my uselessness!!! I have got the buycott app sorted today. It is heartening to see that 13,507 new members joined the boycott israel campaign.

I feel the same Yruapita, what else can we do other than boycott, protest and continue to keep talking about this and spreading awareness?

(I realise the link I provided above to the Goldstone Report isn't directly linked to Protective Edge but I think it's useful for people like me who are trying to gain greater understanding of the history behind the current conflict).

I don't know if this has been verified: Reuters have just started reporting that the Israeli Army have now said missing soldier Hadar Goldin was killed in action.

www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/08/israel-says-missing-soldier-killed-action-201482231018135256.html

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28627888

I have just read that on itn website too. How many Palestinians paid the price for his death? Its all terribly sad. He also looks so young.

Perhaps Obama might like to make another speech now it has been confirmed the soldier was not captured. Only two days ago he was condemning Hamas for this act and saying Israel had the right to defend itself.

We might be waiting a while..

And apparently the soldier was killed in an Israeli airstrike whilst on the ground..

So hang on- the soldier was dead, they must have known he was dead, but allowed his so called 'kidnap' to apparently 'justify' the pounding of Rafah and more than 100 deaths in a day?????

The whole experience was hugely instructive though- it showed the outrageous and blatant bias of the media and the hollow, pathetic, uselessness and the agenda of the likes of Obama.

What it showed me is we are on our own fighting this and the more we can talk together, get together, complain together and protest together the more chance we have to make (maybe only small incremental) shifts

Another interesting trend I've noticed is showing images or video footage of the effects of IDF airstrikes whilst the text or voiceover is all about the Hamas rockets.

NBC's Diane Sawyer was forced to apologise recently for doing this but I also saw it on Pamela Geller's website (she's an American who promotes anti-Muslim ideas on her website but is sometimes called onto panels as a Middle East "expert").

I suppose the aim is to imply the devastation we're seeing is the result of Hamas not the IDF.

www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/diane-sawyer-we-made-a-mistake_b231653

sadly there is no time for small incremental changes. there just isn't. they have their plan and they are going to get away with it with the full backing of leaders all over the world, and those leaders must never have our backing again! how can you vote for people who stand by and don't speak up against mass murder, ethnic cleansing and endless lies and flouting of international law?

i don't think i'll ever vote again - none of them are worthy to call themselves representatives and whilst no, not voting, isn't 'active' they at least won't have my mandate and hopefully less and less and less of a mandate until it becomes so fucking obvious that we won't tolerate this kind of corruption anymore that either they'll have to change or build their own gaza strips. i don't know what happens when you reach the point where 90% of the population are so against their own political leaders class they refuse to even be complicit by voting.

i am massively curious to find out what the hell israel has over our leaders that they will betray their own people and the poor fucking people of palestine rather than stand up to them.

unless of course something can genuinely be done to get rid of this elite political class and get back to having actual politicians and leaders rather than handmaidens and profiteers from big business. doubtful imho.

Pamela Geller has links to the EDL so I really hope that there isn't anybody who takes her seriously