Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

So are you saying timbucktoo that 9/11 was understandable and justified? Sounds like it. I'm afraid the voices on here supporting Muslim fundamentalists are not indicative of the majority in this country. Most people are disgusted by the likes of Abu Hamza who's family lived here on benefits whilst he plotted to murder his host countries' non believers.

How did we get to Abu Hamza? The deflections are getting wilder.

The original Hamas charter is 26 years old. In recent years they have stepped back from it somewhat.
www.theguardian.com/world/2006/jan/12/israel

www.cjpme.org/DisplayDocument.aspx?DocumentID=297&SaveMode=0

Their ceasefire demands are not unreasonable. In fact they demonstrate further the brutality of Israel in denying them these basic rights in the first place:

Withdrawal of Israeli tanks from the Gaza border.

Freeing all the prisoners that were arrested after the killing of the three youths.

Lifting the siege and opening the border crossings to commerce and people.

Establishing an international seaport and airport which would be under U.N. supervision.

Increasing the permitted fishing zone to 10 kilometers.

Internationalizing the Rafah Crossing and placing it under the supervision of the U.N. and some Arab nations.

International forces on the borders.

Easing conditions for permits to pray at the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Prohibition on Israeli interference in the reconciliation agreement.

Reestablishing an industrial zone and improvements in further economic development in the Gaza Strip.

Those demands seem quite reasonable to me - I was just reading them again here at mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html - nothing at all about killing every last Jewish person is there?

very reasonable you'd think.

how we got to 9/11 et al is i think further evidence that this is about ethnic hatred and cleansing. to think 'muslims are filthy terrorists, here see i can name one who was in britain' is somehow a justification for the mass murder of children in schools and playgrounds and humanitarian centres and hospitals by massive military brute violence is senseless unless your point is that it's ok because they were just muslims

the prejudice and hate oozes. it is obviously so engrained that it suprises people when others call them on it. apparently not being a radical muslim hater and propaganda of hate spewer now makes one a supporter of terrorism.

i thought this rhetoric had died on it's legs a fair few years back - maybe not so in israel and america though.

*MarmiteMania

Maybe you could start a thread about Abu Hanza and the fear of a world order of Islamic Fundamentalism, because it seems to be a little off topic.

HTH.

So, are Nobel Prizes for Peace awarded in advance, in anticipation of peace, of assisting in conflict resolution? I don't get it?

This is from July 20th but:

Dr Gilbert in Shifa Hospital

Christ on a bike.

And still the US replenishes Israeli munitions.

Sarah@S123: As backinthering pointed out, that video you posted of pre-schoolers in "Gaza" firing off weapons was filmed in Syria.

I'd also like to highlight another video posted (I think it was in this thread) of a little girl in "Gaza" firing a weapon into a street. Anyway, I've just done 2 minutes' research and it seems that video was filmed in Lebanon not Gaza.

I don't know what the point of those videos were other than to misinform. In my darker moments I wonder if some posters are trying to get us to equate Muslim children with mini-terrorists (so we stop making such a fuss about their deaths). Sorry, but some of the comments about Muslims on this thread have been so vile I have to wonder about the motivation of certain posters.

To those decent posters who are trying to make sense of this thread and decide whether in fact or not the Israeli government has lost the plot (which is my view) I would say please be very careful with your sources of information.

I wish I knew how to do links- has anyone else seen the article 'why Gaza must go'? I think it was in the Jerusalem post.

Deflect deny defame. Deflect deny defame.

This from Humanize Palestine today: I am Ali Shimbari I live in Gaza orphanage. I am 9. I want to be a lawyer when I grow up'

Ali was killed On 23 July whilst taking shelter at the unwra school.

And more inhumanity from israel:
www.independent.co.uk/news/people/message-on-israeli-shell-to-gaza-reads-thats-for-cancelling-the-backstreet-boys-you-scum-9640590.html?dkdkd

They are seriously depraved.

Dear Friends
As all of us are devastated by the loss of so many lives of innocent children in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I will be lighting IMAGINE PEACE TOWER on Thursday 7th August, hoping that such violence will stop immediately.
With deep sadness and love, yoko
Yoko Ono Lennon
1 August 2014

Just finished watching a fascinating interview with Henry Siegman, a former Zionist and top Jewish leader in America. Some defenders seem to think that the issues are too complex for the rest of us to understand, well Henry seems to have a good grasp and he's not buying any of Israel's propaganda. 9th story down, 7th is a second interview with him I'm off to watch it now.

m.democracynow.org/tags/4

all entirely clear really isn't it? that siegman interview says it all that we've been piecing together over these last few threads despite derailments and hate speech and latherings of state ideology.

it is entirely clear what is going on and why.

either give them their state or give them full citizenship in israel. oh but we don't want to do either. oh right, so your plan is? kill them all? keep them in prison camps forever and do all you can to curb their health, education and development and ideally find a way to make their children so sick that they can't reproduce?

it's either recognise them as citizens in the land you share OR divide up the land fairly and have two states. what kind of precocious brat decides nah, we don't like either of those options so we're not gonna do it. ha ha! i got america behind me;

OR at least have the decency to admit you are not a democracy and don't give a flying fuck about being one because in fact you are an apartheid regime that believes in racial superiority and the right of one group to oppress and torture another for their own greed and egomania and what is looking increasingly like actual stone cold pleasure.

It really is frightening isn't it

it is. and i was thinking that this is kind of the crux of why we must have sanctions. if you want the privileges and free trade opportunities of being a democratic nation then you actually have to BE a democractic nation. if you are flagrantly not then you have to lose the privileges of being a democratic state.

re: we should not be trading with israel at all let alone giving them free trade whereby they don't even have to pay duty on exporting stuff here.

Eran Efrati the idf whistleblowers has had his social media accounts closed and been threatened by israeli authorities.

Israel has bombed news stations so there us very little news on the ground. Very little coming from twitter from Gazans who are either dead or dying.

its up to us now to speak on their behalf. They've been silenced. Israel was losing the respect of the world, losing the propoganda war, so in true democratic style they curbed all news emerging from Gaza.

There are demos outside tesco, sainsbury, m&s, and McDonald's in the big town near me. Boycott divest and sanction. We have to do our bit.

"Schools. Mosques. Universities. Hospitals. Ambulances. Homes.

There is currently very heavy shelling in Rafah - 120 known dead reported. Area has been closed off to journalists. I expect there to be some very very bad news from there once they can.
People are trapped there, can't escape, no aid can get it.
Horrifying."

You forgot the power station, the pipes thus spreading sewage, the port, tv station and Im sure there are others. Is there anything that is not a target? The infrastructure is being flattened. Disgrace at best.

UK has released 3m pounds for direct humanitarian assistance. What is the maths? 3m for 1.8 m people, anyone? Each.

do you have any idea what it takes to purchase aid, get it there, employ the people required to get it there, find a way to even be allowed to get the aid in june? or what? you think they're just going to hand a check to each gazan to buy rockets with? what's your implication here?

jesus.

sorry june i think i've probably misread your point i've gotten so used to the 'they're all terrorists' bile that i'm seeing it where it isn't. my apologies.