Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

956 replies

AndHarry · 31/07/2014 11:46

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines Wink

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Backinthering · 02/08/2014 11:06

Schools. Mosques. Universities. Hospitals. Ambulances. Homes.

There is currently very heavy shelling in Rafah - 120 known dead reported. Area has been closed off to journalists. I expect there to be some very very bad news from there once they can.
People are trapped there, can't escape, no aid can get it.
Horrifying.

somewheresafe · 02/08/2014 11:08

More people are speaking out. Voices like russell and zain malik are important as they reach millions of others.

I'm really outraged that Israelis destroyed the main Gaza Strip mosque and the university. Al jazeera also reporting that there are no red lines or rules of international law as even rescue vehicles and ambulances are being bombed. Of course israel claim shots were fired from ambulances/mosques/universities schools.

The imam of the mosque told al jazeera the mosque took years to build and was built with the blood sweat and tears of volunteers.

babbas · 02/08/2014 11:10

Israel is ensuring that no educational establishments are left standing. This is a very deliberate ploy to ensure that any palestinians that survive do not have access to education.

Israel really have become monsters. The irony of it being shabat and israel praying whilst destroying this nation and their places of worship.

People are dying of thirst and hunger too. Somebody do something!

SilenceMeansTrouble · 02/08/2014 11:13

On the subject of the destruction of Gaza's greenhouses due to Palestinian hate James Wolfensonh, the Jewish Businessman who brokered the purchase, would disagree with you fairandbalanced

Wolfensohn sounds hurt and disappointed as he describes the slide into violence after the disengagement from Gaza. "Part of the reason it happened, in my view, is that the conditions in Gaza deteriorated so terribly," he explains. "If you recall, in the time of the withdrawal there was a day or two of people looting, but within 48 hours it was under control. Things were peaceful in Gaza, and this was not because of a military presence of the Israelis. It was because the Palestinians recognized that if they want to have any hope, they need to be in a more peaceful mode."

He toured the Gaza Strip with Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) immediately after the PA asserted its authority there, and recalls a euphoric atmosphere that dissipated very quickly.

"I remember seeing the greenhouses with the chairman and looking at the fruits and everything, and there was a joyous atmosphere: 'Boy, we're about to get this going and we're going to have hotels by the beaches and we're going to have tourism and it's going to be fantastic, and the Palestinians really know how to be hosts.' But in the months afterward, first of all Arik [Sharon] became ill and the current prime minister came in, and there was a clear change of view."

At that time, Wolfensohn recalls, powerful forces in the U.S. administration worked behind his back: They did not believe in the border terminals agreement and wanted to undermine his status as the Quartet's emissary. The official behind this development, he says, was Elliot Abrams, the neoconservative who was appointed deputy national security adviser in charge of disseminating democracy in the Middle East - "and every aspect of that agreement was abrogated."

The non-implementation of the agreement naturally had serious economic consequences. According to Wolfensohn, the shattering of the great hope of normality, which the Palestinians experienced so deeply when the Israel Defense Forces and the settlers left the Gaza Strip, brought about the rise of Hamas. "Instead of hope, the Palestinians saw that they were put back in prison. And with 50 percent unemployment, you would have conflict. This is not just a Palestinian issue. If you have 50 percent of your people with no work, chances are they will become annoyed. So it's not, in my opinion, that Palestinians are so terrible; it is that they were in a situation where a modulation of views between one and the other became impossible.

"And you can blame the Palestinians because there were those among them who were firing rockets or you can blame the Israelis for overreacting," he continues. "But either way - whichever side you take - the situation that emerged was that you had 50 percent of the population frustrated, no resources, and a border which was corrupt on both sides. I saw it with my own eyes: Israelis and Palestinians, arm in arm, walking off together and clearly pricing how you could get your truck to the top of the line or get it through at all. It was an absolutely transparently corrupt system at the border - you had to buy your truck's way across. I thought it was a disgrace."

The issue of the greenhouses is especially painful to Wolfensohn because of his personal contribution to them. "Everything was rotting because you couldn't get the fruit. And if you went to the border, as I did many times, and saw tomatoes and fruit just being dumped on the side of the road, you would have to say that if you were a Palestinian farmer you'd be pretty upset. So my view is to try and not demonize the Palestinians. I'm not denying that there are Palestinians who fire rockets and do terrible things; I know that that happens. But to get a fundamental solution, you have to have hope on both sides."

SilenceMeansTrouble · 02/08/2014 11:15

Text linked from here www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/all-the-dreams-we-had-are-now-gone-1.225828. Apologies as my tablet is playing up.

RedToothBrush · 02/08/2014 11:18

I just heard the other day that Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize. What a fucking joke.

Have a look at the list of previous winners. Many are controversial; some are former 'terrorists' some are heads of state who don't have the most politically correct careers.

The purpose of the award is not just to reward those who are known throughout their careers as promoting peace, but also those who change attitudes and highlight an area which needs promoting.

Being a controversial winner actually can provoke more debate than a candidate who people agree is a worthy winner.

In this case, being a nobel peace prize winner, means that Obama will be under pressure one way or another, to work on that - especially when he comes out with non-peace promoting statements which his predecessors who hadn't won the award were not under.

QnBoudi · 02/08/2014 11:18

FrontierP here's the paul mason link blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/world-war/1240

It will have to be us doing the something, Babbas.

DH has gone off to join 2 separate demos today in Liverpool (while I'm at work). One outside Radio Merseyside. Bet that doesn't make it onto the news. Though it'll probably get more coverage than the truth in Gaza today.

I'm guessing that having knocked out the power supplies, Israel has waited till everyone's phones are dead so no one can record the next round of utter carnage. Sick, sick, sick.

timbucktoo · 02/08/2014 11:22

This is a pinpoint operation....kill civilians, kill children,destroy Mosques, destroy schools,destroy homes,wipe out power supply, wipe out water supply, destroy sanitation and block food shipments.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 11:25

i've just had the sad realisation that i will never be able to vote labour again. i would never have voted tory ever anyway but there is no way i can give my mandate to anyone who supports this and/or doesn't speak out loudly and clearly against it. so that's it. i have to accept i have no political representation in this society.

i wish to god that the nouveau political class would fuck off back to eton, and the banking industry, and lobbying for big business and selling arms etc where they belong and make room for some REAL actual politicians to get in there and start representing the people instead of acting like a fucking set of puppets for big money.

fairandbalanced · 02/08/2014 11:28

As I suspected, responses are blinkered by perception! My words were misunderstood. I did not say or imply that all Muslims hate the West. I do not think that for a moment.
It is Hamas who are the problem, with ideologies that match those of Al Qaida and other Muslim fundamentalists. You cannot reason with terrorists.
That said, only tiny elements of my original post have been targeted. Leading me to think that most of my comments make sense to all.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 11:31

oh so it's just all muslim fundamentalists who are terrorists and want to kill us? do you think the same of christian fundamentalists or orthodox jews or fundamentalist buddhists (now there's a funny idea lol)? or is it just those muslims that worry you?

OneStepCloser · 02/08/2014 11:33

TheHoneyBadger I agree with you I have always been a staunce Socialist and have always voted Labour (accept in some LE and EE where I have voted Green) and Im struggling to believe that both parties are keeping quiet about this, I read on hear that Paddy Pantsdown has spoken out and I admire him for that, Nick Clegg? (although I cannot see myself ever voting LD).

I cannot see how they are ignoring the people so blantantly in their own countries.

Incidentally, Im wondering if it is worth complaining to the BBC for their blatant bias reporting to Israel? I watch them and wonder do the presenters agree with what they report or does it pain and frustrate them.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 11:52

i think others on this thread have been complaining daily to the bbc onestepcloser.

the green party has spoken against it but i don't think they even field candidates around me.

FrontierPsychiatrist · 02/08/2014 11:53

fairandbalanced I reread your post and actually couldn't find anything that made sense apart from your show of empathy for the Palestinians at the beginning.

In an ironic way.

You followed the Israel's Project 2009 Global Language Dictionary perfectly. Good job!

FrontierPsychiatrist · 02/08/2014 11:58

Nobody seems to be able to reason with Israel right now. Dissent is being punished and people are afraid to speak out.

That sounds like terrorism to me.

But it just a depends on your POV, doesn't it fairandbalanced?

MarmiteMania · 02/08/2014 12:04

"oh so it's just all muslim fundamentalists who are terrorists and want to kill us? do you think the same of christian fundamentalists or orthodox jews or fundamentalist buddhists (now there's a funny idea lol)? or is it just those muslims that worry you?"

The HoneyBadger yes it's most certainly the Muslim fundamentalists that worry an awful lot of people. Perhaps 9/11 and 7/11 were just one of those things eh?

saadia · 02/08/2014 12:11

Some of us consider Israel to be a terrorist state so...do the math, who has taken more lives?

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 12:20

the lives lost in both of those events combined don't even put a dent in the number of lives taken by israel.

timbucktoo · 02/08/2014 12:20

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter!

Palestinians just want freedom from their oppressor

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 12:22

and israel just want to carry on oppressing whilst being seen as a victim.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 12:23

it's not enough to let them get away with genocide the whole world is meant to stand around and applaud the emporer's new clothes. not enough to be allowed to steal land and torture and kill human beings, you need us to all pretend it's self defense as well.

dream on.

fairandbalanced · 02/08/2014 12:25

As I suspected, responses are blinkered by perception! My words were misunderstood. I did not say or imply that all Muslims hate the West. I do not think that for a moment.
It is Hamas who are the problem, with ideologies that match those of Al Qaida and other Muslim fundamentalists. You cannot reason with terrorists.
That said, only tiny elements of my original post have been targeted. Leading me to think that most of my comments make sense to all.

fairandbalanced · 02/08/2014 12:26

Frontierpsychiatrist - brainwashed? I don't think so. You are factually incorrect. You state that nobody is calling for Israel to be removed! Hamas have it in their charter! It's not a secret - it is something they are proud if and never ever deny it! Get your facts right before spouting nonsense. And you just carry in supporting the 9/11 advocates. When they've finished with the Jews, they'll just move onto everyone else in the west.

justasecond · 02/08/2014 12:27

yet another Israeli war crime

Levantine · 02/08/2014 12:32

I really think the only way to understand it is to look at the land.

Some people lived on land. Some others moved in and then took more than they had been allotted. They then denied basic rights such as rights to education, to the people in the land they had illegally taken. Those people eventually fought back and it is amazing that it took so long.

I know that is simplistic, but I think for future generations where the history of the Jewish people will not have the resonance it had in the immediate aftermath of WW2, Israel will be seen increasingly as a rogue state.