Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

956 replies

AndHarry · 31/07/2014 11:46

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines Wink

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 09:24

mindboggling.

to be in world where killing 1600 civilians is 'self defense' but the capture of an invading soldier is 'barbaric'.

how much more flagrant could it get? one israeli soldier is apparently worth thousands of palestinian children. crazy crazy horrible bleurgh.

FrontierPsychiatrist · 02/08/2014 09:33

They teach their children to hate.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=aKucPh9xHtM

Have a look at this video (linked to on previous thread) and then tell me who is teaching Palestinian children to hate. Their parents? Or the Israeli military?

FrontierPsychiatrist · 02/08/2014 09:36

Who is calling for Israel to be removed?

Nobody.

Who is calling for Palestine to be removed?

Israel.

Hamas and Palestine may as we'll be interchangeable, because when Hamas are removed, a new group will replace them, as sure as the sun will rise every morning. If you continue to oppress a group of people, corralled in a small area, they will continue to resist. It's not that difficult to understand. Are you willfully misunderstanding, or have you been brainwashed?

Roussette · 02/08/2014 09:50

Well done Russell Brand.

And where is war criminal Tony Blair, the 'Peace Envoy to the Middle East'. He is spectacularly silent. Probably due to his ongoing friendship with Netanyahu. Last I heard was him saying in June that Hamas had a clear choice to make and they must renounce violence. Not a word since that I've heard.

edamsavestheday · 02/08/2014 09:59

Actually Blair was busy throwing a birthday party for Cherie. At their mansion in the home counties. With performance by Bobby Davro (or some other naff comedian of that ilk, may have got the name wrong). As Palestine burned, the peace envoy was having a laugh.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 10:02

i just wanted to say this again - as we've all been really derailed and understandably so by lots of racial hatred type posts and rhetoric - that for me this isn't about jews or muslims, right group, wrong group etc for me.

this is about power and the abuse of it and oppression and mass murder of civilians for me. i don't want the powerful to protect me against those big bad muslims OR those big bad israelis. i want us to protect ourselves against the powerful who tend to be the real bloody enemies.

israel's government is using and abusing the most brute form of power there is against human beings re: the weaponry of one of the most advanced militaries in the world. using that weaponry in a civilian area from which there is no escape and deeming it acceptable to kill hundreds and hundreds of children in the process. that is not ok for me and shouldn't be ok to anyone. we are surely more advanced than that as a species by now? we've surely at least hit that far along an ethical path that we've internationally agreed it's not ok to murder civilians and children in their homes and schools and call it 'war'.

it is not about religion or ethnicity for me it is about the horrific inhumane abuse of power by elites against a virtually defenseless people whilst blaming those people for their own deaths.

Springheeled · 02/08/2014 10:07

Agree 100% honeybadger

saadia · 02/08/2014 10:08

Thank you for that link FrontierPsychiatrist.

Backinthering · 02/08/2014 10:09

fairandbalanced, I'm afraid your viewpoint doesn't exactly tally with the reality of what happened. Yes, the blockade was lifted somewhat in 2005, but I wouldn't exactly describe leaving the Palestinians in prosperous, self-determined utopia.
The blockade was then re-established after Hamas came to power in 2006.

You're also not correct about Hamas using aid money simply to pursue "terror tunnels" instead of civil spending. Please see the following:

"Hamas is popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.[58]

In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas's use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of violence against Israel.[59] Charities affiliated with Hamas are known to financially support families of those who have been killed or imprisoned while carrying out militant actions or supporting such actions. Families typically receive a one time grant of $500 to $5,000, and those whose homes have been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces have their rent paid for temporary housing. Families of militants not affiliated with Hamas sometimes receive less.[60]

Hamas has funded education and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas.[61]

The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah.[62] Since the 2008–2009 Israeli military operation in Gaza, Palestinian public opinion polls have shown Hamas steadily increasing in popularity with 52% support compared to 13% for Fatah. All public opinion surveys conducted recently have supported this trend.[63]

Despite building materials needing to be smuggled into the territory, luxury beach resorts and tourist facilities operated by the interior ministry have been constructed by Hamas government–linked charities, including gardens, playgrounds, football fields, a zoo and restaurants aimed to provide employment and low cost entertainment for citizens. Some Palestinians have complained about the admission fee, criticizing Hamas for charging them to use "government-owned" property.[64]"

I personally don't care for Hamas as I'm not someone that would ever support a religious-based political party, and I do think that electing them has made life in Gaza a lot harder, but I can also completely understand why people voted for them, what a sense of frustration and desperation they must have felt.

I also think that the whole rhetoric of simply denouncing them as terrorists is simplistic and completely stands in the way of negotiating some sort of peace.
They were pretty much on the brink of giving up power in Gaza anyway. They were broke - internal tensions in Iran etc meant that their remaining sources of funding had dried up. Hence looking to form a unity government with Fatah.
But Likud doesn't WANT unity between Gaza and the West Bank. Likud has never acknowledged a two-state solution for Palestine.

edamsavestheday · 02/08/2014 10:11

Yes, honey, but the powerful abuse ethnicity and nationality (although they object to the very notion of a Palestinian state) in order to justify their actions and gain support from right-wing extremists in Israel. And there are equally extremists who use it as an excuse for anti-semitism, or are anti-semitic anyway and see this as a handy cause to espouse.

fairandbalanced · 02/08/2014 10:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

edamsavestheday · 02/08/2014 10:14

And Back is right that the real cause of this conflict is Israeli opposition to Palestinian unity. That's what this was all about. The idea that it had anything to do with the teenagers - ISIS has claimed responsibility for their kidnapping and deaths - is just an excuse. As you can see now that Israel is has shifted to claiming it's all about destroying tunnels.

saadia · 02/08/2014 10:19

fairandbalanced I see that you 'forgot' to mention the illegal Israeli settlements which are encroaching on to Palestinian land.

Backinthering · 02/08/2014 10:24

fairandbalanced the destruction of Israel was in Hamas' original charter. Most recently they have said it's no longer valid but hasn't been removed because of internal politics.
However it's convenient for the Zionists to state it as an absolute, and claim that Hamas wants the blood of every last Jewish person on earth.
Ironic, then, at it's Israel who is killing so many Palestinians.
So on the one hand, we have what Hamas may or may not do, in an alternative universe, and on the other hand, in this universe, we have the massacre of innocent civilians, and we're expected to give more weight to this parallel universe than the real one.
Which is bizarre if you stop and think about it.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 10:26

i'm reporting all of the race hate posts. presumably fairandbalanced is calling ALL muslims '9/11 advocates' who want to kill everyone - or does she mean just palestinians or is she talking about hamas??? it's so hard to unpick racist and hatemongering statements because the 'them' is so generalised you're not quite sure who is being talked about.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 10:27

yes somehow we're to believe that 'an idea' is far more barbaric than the actual genocidal mass murdering of an ethnic group. we should be more shocked by someone SAYING they want something eradicated than we should be by someone ACTUALLY eradicating.

interesting logic.

Backinthering · 02/08/2014 10:28

fairandbalanced are you saying it's Hamas' aim to wipe out everyone in the West?
Because that would be nonsense.
Or are you saying it's Muslims who want to wipe out everyone in the West?
Because that would be Islamophobic.
So either way your statement isn't looking too good, is it?

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 10:29

i think she meant all muslims or arabs depending on whether she's hating them for their ethnicity or their religion - the two seem mingled together for her.

TheHoneyBadger · 02/08/2014 10:31

but yes apparently according to her amongst other gems on this thread ALL muslims are 9/11 advocates who want to kill all jews and then will coming to a town near you to murder you too! that's not racial hatred and incitement against an ethno-relgious group at all is it? it's not like EDF or national front convention on here AT ALL is it?????

gosh. the apologists should be allowed to speak more often. they do themselves far more damage than any critic could.

somewheresafe · 02/08/2014 10:37

Fair - ffs please read the first thread where basic misinformation like yours was discussed and debated.

I can't believe I'm writing this but I'm actually feeling very sorry for Hamas. Al jazeera report today that the soldier was probably killed during combat. It seems israel misconstrued the situation or deliberately used his death to escalate violence. Hamas never did claim to have captured the soldier and it seems they were right all along.

I'm also beginning to see that the fighters on the ground are defending themselves whilst the idf are attacking. Big difference in approach. www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/inquiry/13160-hamas-is-waging-a-just-and-defensive-liberation-war-in-gaza

Can I ask a genuine question? Why do Hamas ground forces not have the right to fight back? Does international law require them to accept death and brutality?

Another point to mention is that Gaza has now been without water for 6 days. If the attacks don't kill them disease and dehydration will.

I no longer believe a word coming out of israel. If they knew the soldier was dead but used his death to kill 200 more then they are more barbaric than I thought.

There are also reports now of mass killings by idf ground troops as images have been released of whole families rounded up into bathrooms and riddled with bullets. Is this barbaric enough for you Obama? Cameron?

timbucktoo · 02/08/2014 10:38

The basis of this boils down to Israel thinking its their God given right to the land "God is not a real estate agent." pure and simple.

QnBoudi · 02/08/2014 10:42

I just need to remind myself of some key points in this topsy turvy madness.

In this 'war' one side is a state with resources aplenty, including one of the most advanced military forces and several international mouth pieces.

Palestinians of whatever colour are not 'terrorists' but resistors.

'Self defence' allows protection of oneself - not to be confused with rampant slaughter of others, mostly innocent civilians, or wanton destruction of property.

The MISSING Israeli soldier (who knows where he is?) was armed, trained, supported, as well as fed and watered. HOW can his DISAPPEARANCE be more 'barbaric' than the bloody annihilation/slaughter/massacre of HUNDREDS of children, toddlers and babies, never mind the others?

I despair. I want a general strike on the part of all sane humans on Monday, with everyone massing outside town halls. Have you seen the Paul mason (thank goodness for him!) piece on how WW1 ended?

Backinthering · 02/08/2014 10:43

I have suspected all along that Israel want this conflict. They seem to have contrived an escalation of tensions right from the start. The disgraceful exploitation of those teenagers' deaths, the convenient breaking of every ceasefire that gets blamed on Hamas, and now, by the looks of things, this soldier.
The IDF were ramping up tensions before this. The shooting dead of two unarmed teenagers a few weeks ago. I saw the footage, the boy was walking down a road and they just shot him for no reason.
Apart from Al Jazeera, that received absolutely zero coverage.
Cheap Palestinian lives again.

timbucktoo · 02/08/2014 10:44

In any other land the soldier (if he was caught) would be a prisoner of war. How many so called Hamas members are in Israeli prisons?

FrontierPsychiatrist · 02/08/2014 10:57

Do you have a link to that please QnBoudi?

Well said timbucktoo.

Although, I think we're so far from the start point that it's almost irrelevant now how this conflict started.

I just heard the other day that Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize. What a fucking joke.

I'm so angry. So angry.

Everytime I look at my children my heart breaks for the suffering of the families at the other side of the Mediterranean. For the innocent children who are being hurt, and their helpless parents. They must be constantly terrified. The sheer physical stress of constant terror must be exhausting. The mental stress must be mindblowing.

And Israel calls them the terrorists. How bloody pathetic.

I can't imagine how I would cope in Palestine, how my children would cope. If they even survived, how fucked up they would be. And it would not be for lack of our teaching them to value life, it would be because of the reign of terror that is Israel.

I think I love Russell Brand for being a voice of reason. For using his voice. For using his reason.

Swipe left for the next trending thread