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Part 4: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

956 replies

AndHarry · 31/07/2014 11:46

New thread again.

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Thread 2 - in which we mainly discussed Operation Protective Edge.

Thread 3 - in which we continued to discuss Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement.

Welcome to part 4, in which I hope it's not too much to ask that we stick to the MN Talk Guidelines Wink

As many people have asked about Syria, I'm pleased to say that a new discussion on that subject has been started (by another poster here.

OP posts:
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OneStepCloser · 01/08/2014 22:17

Israel are a massive customer for the USAs Arms, says it all really.

Backinthering · 01/08/2014 22:29

"A barefoot corpse in camouflaged khakis is being carried into the street, partially wrapped in rug, as I enter the house. His partly burned and partly decomposing face is unrecognizable as anyone who was ever alive and breathing. Witnesses say there were at least six bodies piled together inside this one tiled room where the air is poisonous with decay. [...]

The house is filled with casings from the bullets used in assault rifles. They are marked on the bottom as “IMI” (Israel Military Industries)."

From the Guardian blog. Perhaps Mr Obama would care to condemn a mass execution as barbaric? Oh hang on, it's Israelis doing the killing and Palestinians doing the dying, so that's okay then....

timbucktoo · 01/08/2014 22:44

Obama the puppet hands are tied, we all know who pulls the strings

somewheresafe · 01/08/2014 23:06

On the first thread it was mentioned that Desmond tutu, Nelson Mandela, ghandi and Martin Luther King had all condemned the occupation of palestine. All of these are icons for generation after generation. Yet their comments relating to palestine are ignored.

Another good point made by a palestinian spokesman on sky news was tgat the world is denying palestine the right to resist. Resistance to occupation is a right recognized in international law. Palestinians are double victims as they are massacred and then blamed for being victims. It was very poignant to hear the frustration in his voice.

It does now appear that the world leaders are looking on silently because the victims are muslim. Can you imagine the absolute carnage if a muslim country was occupying israel and killing Israelis? Or British? Or Americans?

What a truly truly depressing day.

justasecond · 01/08/2014 23:07

Totally agree Somewhere.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 23:18

Agree somewhere

Having just seen David Miliband on newsnight, (voted for war in Iraq) I'm laughing at the thought he was somehow supposed to be the great hope for the Labour Party. Where are the great men or women of today?? AWOL

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 23:19

It's up to us...

SmellyFartado · 01/08/2014 23:19

Haven't been on MN in about a year and my once funny to me moniker seems very inappropriate here but I can't bloody change it despite trying.

I just had to log in and write as it feels like the world has turned it's back on what we are seeing on the news and the far starker realities you can see on social media and the internet.

I have this evening read about and seen a photograph of dead Palestinian children, younger even than my own, babies really, lying in the street, no dignity in death as has been the same for them in life.

What fucking world are we living in where despite what side of the war you believe to be right that this is allowed to happen?

Families where when they go to bed at night, they have to think about whether to sleep in the same room and all perish if a missile hits or to sleep in separate rooms and hope that if something happened, some of them may be spared?

In contrast, I have seen images of Israelis in deckchairs on a beach watching missile strikes as some macabre form of entertainment. I have also read the post up thread about the chant about there being no school as there is no children left.

WHEN IS THE WORLD GOING TO FUCKING WAKE UP AND STOP THIS??

Just now on Sky news, it was reporting that there have been 1450 Palestinian deaths since the conflict broke out, the majority of these being civilians. In contrast, 67 Israeli deaths, the majority being soldiers with only 3 civilians. Doesn't this statistic fucking say it all?

It seems that terms of war crimes and atrocities are saved for ...well what? Bandied about when our nice little allies are attacked? Yet, Palestinians are suffering war crimes and atrocities at the hands of Israel yet nothing, absolutely fucking nothing, is being done to stop them - no condemnation from western world leaders at what is clearly genocide, no interventions, nothing.

Today, the ceasefire was brought to a sudden end by the kidnap of a soldier allegedly by Hamas. Where is the proof of this to justify the retaliations? Wasn't it acknowledged that the 3 teenagers alleged to have been killed by Hamas was unsubstantiated?

I am disgusted by the apathy of Cameron, Obama et al. I am disgusted at the one sided nature of reporting that is spewed out and I am sickened that innocent children, men and women are caught up in this daily hell with no end or resolution in sight.

Is it any wonder there is such hatred towards the west when we stand by and watch these atrocities? In fact, in doing so, the west then becomes complicit to those acts.

I've cut and pasted this from the Al Jazeera website - In a speech published after the ceasefire broke down, Saudi King Abdullah hit out at the "inexcusable" world silence over Israel's "war crimes" in Gaza."We see the blood of our brothers in Palestine being shed in collective massacres, that have spared nobody, and in war crimes against humanity... all taking place under the eyes and ears of the international community... that has stood indifferently watching events in the whole region," the king said. This silence is inexcusable" and will "result in a generation that rejects peace and believes only in violence," he said.

Says it all.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 23:26

Totally says it all.

:(

thecatfromjapan · 01/08/2014 23:27

I so agree with these posts.

I have just returned from the demonstration outside the Embassy. It came to me very forcibly that there is a huge, a massive gulf between the way our "leaders" are acting, the way (most of) our news is being reported, and the reality of how a huge number of us are feeling.

They need to wake up. And we need to make them wake up.

What is being done to the Palestinians is an atrocity and an affront to all of humanity.

June55 · 01/08/2014 23:29

Well said Smelly.

Springheeled I found Miliband a breath of fresh air as he put that Newsnight woman in her place (cant keep up with BBCs schizophrenia in reporting and interviews) as he thoroughly condemned ALL and ANY civilian deaths. Well worth a watch on i player if no one has seen it.

saadia · 01/08/2014 23:32

Yes Smelly, the West is complicit. These people are taking us into darkness and it is terrifying. What is happening to the Palestinians could happen to any other group who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2014 23:35
Junebugjr · 01/08/2014 23:42

What does the West think its creating in Gaza?? Like in the Saudi king said, a generation will now be created that will have even more hatred toward us, and less of a propensity toward peace. If was an angry young man/woman, who had lost my family and watched Obamas victim blaming speech in a few years down the line, I think that enough would incense me to violence. Does the West not see it will cause even more problems with 'terrorists' in the future. I have completely lost faith in our leaders, Gaza must feel like the world is watching but no one will help.

somewheresafe · 01/08/2014 23:43

Has anyone seen Russel brands reply to Sean hannity? It's brilliant.

We need more voices. Shouting louder and for longer. Obama is pitiful. I remember watching his inauguration on the verge of tears with my kids. Telling them the world was an amazing place and that they could dream big. He has been the most disappointing individual of our generation. He didn't even begin to close guantanamo.

Over 160 killed today in Gaza. And an escalation expected overnight.

somewheresafe · 01/08/2014 23:45

X post with red.

Russell makes lots of brilliant points. Including the one that powerful people hijack terms like terrorist self defence genocide. But language should be universal. And yes, in today's world ghandi would be labelled a terrorist. Well said russell.

justasecond · 01/08/2014 23:48

Totally agree re the BBC reporting. I only switched on today thinking it had got bit better but instead we had the woman badgering the Palestinian spokesperson in the style of Hannity to condemn the capture of the Israeli soldier whilst conveniently glossing over the death of 1600 Palestinians like the 2 things are unrelated. They are all mad! its like an alternative reality.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 23:48

Can't get enthused about David Miliband when he voted for the deaths of civilian kids in Iraq, nah.

Why oh why is Obama so desperately spineless?! Hope my arse.

Springheeled · 01/08/2014 23:49

Agree justasecond and others, it's like living in a hall of mirrors.

justasecond · 02/08/2014 00:07

Russell Brand is brilliant (never thought I would write those words)
I just can't believe they allow people like Hannity on tv in America and that hysterical woman going on about celebs and how we are all crazy in Europe!

Chipstick10 · 02/08/2014 08:45

Go Paddy Ashdown. Have never agreed with him before but he's saying it like it is.

Levantine · 02/08/2014 08:52

Yes re Paddy Ashdown, I was impressed too

Junebugjr · 02/08/2014 08:56

Sorry, what has he said?

Levantine · 02/08/2014 09:01

He was on the Today programme saying that israel's response is foolish, and that they have lost sympathy and support of the international community and will have created more terrorists.

Btw I am not a lib dem supporter by any stretch

fairandbalanced · 02/08/2014 09:23

A complete tragedy what is happening over there. It should not have happened and should never be allowed to happen again. The deaths on BOTH sides could have been avoided. It goes without saying that these deaths are awful but I would like to look at some other aspects of this terrible situation. It does not mean I do not care - it's just that a lot has been said on this forum over last the few weeks and I like to offer my opinion. I feel that I am a lone voice on here and no doubt will get shouted down but I feel I should be allowed to say what I'm thinking (and so should everyone else by the way - that's democracy)! So where do I begin... I won't look at the history. I do feel however that many people on here do not really have a full understanding of the history of the area. All I would say is that there is plenty of info online about the history and whose land it is etc. so, with that out of the way, what are the actual facts. In 2005 Israel left Gaza in exchange for peace. They left a prosperous area with 3000 agricultural greenhouses and many homes and other buildings. The Palestinians were given millions of dollars in aid to develop their country - to build schools and hospitals etc. BUT, instead of taking the opportunity to live peacefully with their Israeli neighbours, this is what they chose to do... They immediately started firing rockets at Israel. They flattened all the greenhouses. They flattened the Israeli built buildings. They used the millions of dollars of aid to build terror tunnels instead of using it to build schools and hospitals. They built a terrorist state. That money should also have been used for medicines and food - it's very easy to show the world pictures of poor suffering children without food and medicine. It's also easy to 'forget' to mention that maybe these poor children wouldn't be in that position if the money had been used for its intended purpose by their leaders It looks like a David and Goliath scenario over there if you look at the awful statistics. The fact is that Israel has chosen to spend millions on its iron dome defence system. If that was not in place the Israeli deaths would be significantly higher. The Palestinians have had money - they chose to spend it differently. So, the blockades is another area frequently talked about. The facts are as follows. In 2005, there were no blockades. When the rockets started raining down on Israel they chose to do something about it. They blocked the borders to try and stop the rockets getting in. Name one other country in the history of the world that hasn't closed its borders with a neighbouring warring country? Food and supplies have been allowed through DAILY. This is a fact. 800,000 tonnes of concrete has been allowed in for rebuilding purposes. This concrete has been used to build the very tunnels that Hamas are using to infiltrate Israel.
I could go on and on. The people of Gaza have been hijacked by Hamas. Hamas are terrorists. They share the same ideologies as Al Quaida. They rejoiced at 9/11 and 7/7. They have in their charter that they demand the destruction of Israel. They teach their children to hate. There is only really one solution the this horrible situation. Hamas needs to be removed - not Israel.

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