Part 3: Israeli-Palestinian conflict

[AndHarry]

New thread as part 2 is nearly full.

Part 1 is here.

Part 1 was started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered.

Part 2 is here.

In part 2 we mainly discussed the legality and human consequences of Operation Protective Edge.

I have to go now but will read back,so not ignoring anyone

God bless humanity, poor God, must be right fucked off

Right, so because viewpoints which differ to yours begin to appear on a thread on a public forum, suddenly there is a 'conspiracy' or these people are being 'paid'?!

None of you have responded to the links I have posted except in the most derogatory and hateful manner.

A discussion is about hearing people out, particularly those who are actually directly involved (living there etc). It amazes me that many of you seem to think you know better than them.

Unbelievable.

Emma777 I hope you are banned for your continual personal attacks.

KareninsGirl

With the world reeling in shock and revulsion at the latest mass murders by the State of Israel, can you think of anybody who might have an interest in disrupting discussion?

The film of the man from the UN breaking down is heartrending in that it shows humanity and what is being done to humanity.
I wish there was more we could do.

PJ

All I know is that I have been one of perhaps 3 or 4 posters trying to put across the other side of this and I have been met with abuse, accusations and been called an apologist and pro genocide.

If we have others here now who more accurately, in my opinion, represent what is actually going on, then that us fine with me. Just because our views do not sit neatly with yours or make you question what you know it dues not mean we are trolls or paid by anyone. I for one feel really insulted.

I have not reported one of the abusive posts I have received on here, have never been rude and have stuck to the facts.

The same cannot always be said for others here.

Stop being so conspiritational.

lk14 Wed 30-Jul-14 20:41:25

• what I do not understand is why people can't see both sides of this story - there are obviously innocent people in Gaza who are caught up in this - but surely you must understand that Israel has to defend itself

hello, lk14 and welcome to mumsnet.

An easy one for you here.

You say "Israel has to defend itself" and "innocent people are caught up in this"

I am reminded of a professional apologist for the State of Israel, who has the unenviable task of trying to convince "the persuadables" that the State of Israel is not a gang of murderering criminals.

He makes the point that Israel considers it necessary to killand maim people by the thousand, in the sure and certain knowledge that the majority of Israel's victims will be non-combatants, and many of them will be children. He takes the view that the deaths and maimings of people sheltering in UN sanctuaries, or the sick and injured who are bombed in hospitals, are just an unfortunate by product of the Israeli attacks.

Consider this.

An anti-Israel suicide bomber kills himself on a bus in Israel, killing and injuring several Israelis. The suicide bomber has an apologist, who is permitted to be politely interviewed on Israeli TV, and says "it was our intention to destroy the bus. The fact that there were some Israeli women and children on it who got caught in the blast is just an unfortunate by-product, and I am very saddened that they were accidentally and unintentionally killed. However their deaths are entirely the fault of the Israeli government who continue to allow bus services to run even though they know we plan to bomb them."

Do you know any person alive who would accept that?

It's tough to take a minority position Kareninsgirl but you have stuck to your guns so can hold your head up high.

“I see humans but no humanity.”

Blimey but didn't the people on the street behind the BBC reporter in Israel on the news at ten look petrified! They seemed to be just as scared and unable to live their normal lives as the children pictured in the hospital in gaza didn't they Israel apologists? And the people on the demo chanting that no children were left in Gaza- they certainly are in need of the entire world's support aren't they?

Hi everyone. I've been dipping in and out of this thread all day. I've also discovered the excellent AlJazeera and have been hugging my DS far more than usual.
Today I met my mother and three of her friends in a pub (they were initially in my small town to shop and the plan was initially to meet at my house). I decided before they arrived that I didn't want to spend z£10-15 on lunch, I'd rather donate it to MAP. I wasn't expecting my mother and co to follow suit, although it would have been amazing if they did, but their reaction instead was, frankly, embarrassing. When I said this to my mum and her friends they looked at me like I'd gone mad. They couldn't have looked at me more weirdly if I'd announced I was only going to wear black and yellow from now on and had decided to live as a bee. My mums friend J said 'oh, whatever turns you on' and carried on flicking through the menu, and my mum looked me like I was a rebellious teen and said 'I have enough problems of my own without getting involved in anyone else's dramas.'
DRAMAS?! FFS! The Israeli army have destroyed the power plant, there is NO power in Gaza! None! Hospitals are operating on crappy generators and candles. Children have been shelled while playing in a refugee camp! Families are being killed while sheltering in UN buildings! Gazans are being told to evacuate areas but have nowhere to go - nowhere!
I didn't expect them all to automatically forgo their lunch, but the dismissive reaction was very hard to swallow.

(Actually, maybe it's an exaggeration re candles but that, unfortunately, seems about it!)

Nancery that was lovely of you. I think a lot of people just don't want to think about painful things, they just zone them out.
Hopefully your gesture will have stuck in their heads. Maybe they will switch on the news later, or see something in the newspaper, and something will click.

nancery you reminded me to donate again, thank you.

Nancery I think the more you discuss it and read about it, the more emotionally involved you become. For many people it's just another news story. Don't take it to heart.

Thanks, however it just feels like a minuscule drop in the ocean. I am hoping that, despite the rapid change of subject, it does make them think. My argument would have been that while 'this' (ie Gaza / Israel) doesn't affect you now, it doesn't mean it's nothing to do with you. OUR government has sold ££££ of arms to Israel, people they (my mum voted for 'Dave') voted in and are currently doing nothing. It may not be on our doorstep now, but will another terrorist attack on London hone the concentration?!

Very sadly nancery I suspect a terrorist attack in London would create more islamophobia.

But at least it sounds like many families are very similar nancery! I've given up with mine and issues such as this

It drives me mad springheeled I know my mum won't watch harrowing things on the news as it's, well, harrowing. So she blanks it out as it's not on her doorstep, and not her problem. But...

And, as you may gather from my previous posts, I am not remotely clued up or political generally. I do have an interest in humanitarian / post war issues (worked in Cambodia for a while) but that's pretty much it.
I can't get over what's going on at the moment, hence me constantly checking (and learning from) this thread and as well as the horrified disbelief, I am also, quietly, worried.

Since Israel pulled out of GAZA some 9 years ago. Hamas killed its apponants to gain power. Hamas writ their Charter especially look at article 7. For a while there was open trade, israel gave millions in aid to build schools and infrastructure and farms. Hamas started attacking Israel..this caused the so called Seige of Gaza, each attack meant an ever tightening blockade to protect Israel from terrorist infiltration. Tunnels were being build with the cement given by Israel to build schools, homes and hospitals. No one new the full extent of these tunnels. It was known arms were being smuggled in (flotillas). Even Egypt cracked down on Hamas, closing its borders because of the danger. Hamas fired rockets into Israeli on an ever increasing level. Often purposely bombing their own FREE electricity supply, which Israel keep fixing and giving FREE electric. Hamas then called for kidnappings, so whether the perpetrators were Hamas, other faction or criminal makes no difference Hamas called for kidnappings! Hamas carried on bombing Israel. NOW after 9 years of constant attacks Israel retaliate. Yes they retaliate hard...Since then they have found a tunnel network that would put the London underground to shame. These tunnels were built with forced labour from little children of which at least 160 died. Leading into civilian areas, playgrounds, librarys, dinner halls etc. Their plan to launch a massive ground invasion on Rosh Hashonah this year with the full might of their arsenal. Yes they use human shields they have even clearly admitted that. Yes they store ammo in houses, schools, mosques and hospitals. Yes they have hq by the emergency room. Yes they bully there people to be shields. Yes they execute their own troops, which they did last week. UN lovely UN...Ammo keeps getting found in their buildings once may be an accident, but more and more makes you wonder and they even handed missiles back to Hammas! Now I can understand and even forgive Hamas for killing Israelis and Jews but I can not understand and I can never forgive them hurting and killing their own. If this is the kind of regim you want to support feel free. This is just a taster, there is plenty more

I don't think any in here are claiming to support Hamas!

Anyone see that disgusting shit Regev on Newsnight? Still spouting the same "human shields" bollocks.

gosh it's a car crash on here that i've come back to.

i do hope these goons are being paid enough.

How odd that to protest against the murder of civilians somehow is seen to equate with supporting Hamas! Um, no.

I had to turn over in the first three minutes of Newsnight- total crap