ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

uwila words fail me. if you can't see the direct correlation between the billions of dollars the US gives to israel and their total and unremitting support of israel and what is happening then i lose all hope for you tbh.

just look at the difference between israel's activities now and the fact that they were round the negotiating table during the Clinton administration.

I'd vary Caligula's view a little, but taking into acount that Moslem countries are shit. They are the sort of threat you get from muggers, not civilised nations. Their combined effective military strength is somewhere between Scotland and Belgium. A Moslem arrmy is not a conquering force, it's a sort of semi-mobile humanitarian disaster. It's as likely to start murdering itself as any enemy. For every Moslem killed in the last 50 years by Israel, Btitain and America, between 10 and 50 times as many have been killed by their own people.
With no help from the US Israel could conquer any Arab nation of it's choosing. Indeed that is the problem. America both supports it in folly, but stops it going the whole way and eliminating it's enemies.
Also Israel has nukes, and they're easily mad enough to use them.
Thus Israel cannot be conquered by any of it's enemies, and and nation state that used a serious weapon on Israel would become a radioactive cloud within a couple of hours
Israle is quite capable of building the bombs it currently imports, and is indeed a siginficant exporter of weapons itself. The US ones just happen to he cheap and efficient, but are in no way irreplaceable.
The US however is wholly responsible not for the survival of Israel, but it's government. Vast amnounts of aid allow it to live far beyond it's means. Without this aid, it's economy would force it to behave better, and any government of Israel that caused effective economic sanctions wold be chucked out very fast.
Thus cutting of the purchse by Israel of weapons wouild achieve little, but cutting the pursestrings would get their attention big time.

i'm a heinous git for it, but some of that post (it was the way it was expressed rather than the sad truth behind it) made me giggle DC.

I suppose sometimes if you didn't laugh you cry and cry and cry which is a bit how I've been feeling about it this weekend.

Like i said last night, we desperately need regime change in the white house (but that's not for two more years) or some great leadership in israel

caligula the people to mediate with the palestinians would be egypt wouldn't they? or have they lost credibility on both sides?

DC - the words "dick" and "head" and the name "John Cleese" come to mind EVERY time I read one of your posts.

Sophable, "We"? need a regime change. I think expat and I are the only ones on this thread who can stake claim to an American president. Apologies if I missed any other Americans.

Caligula, I take your point on the weak analogy. And yes, I accept there is a supply of weapons. But it doesn't make America solely responsible for their every action. Israel chooses it's own course. And I don't think America is to blame for all the world's problems.

mimoyello

Ask him where he wants to bury nuclear waste.

Not all of them Uwila.

DC's back passage would be a good place for hiding nuclear waste, by which I mean the passage at the back of his house, you understand

I think anyone who denies the huge involvement and support Israel has from the US and the direct link between that and its ability to carry out these atrocities is deluded.Who knows what would have happened if Clintons work had been carried on by a like minded successor rather than the lunatic in the White House now

noddy - the sad fact is that the vast majority of the world's foremost "peace loving" nation, the US of A, have the ability to vote for people like Bush and undermine the likes of Clinton.

I don't like George Galloway, he is a fool, but I liked his analogy in the Commons the other day, he said the relationship between Bush and Blair was increasingly like the one between Clinton and Lewinsky. Rather crass I know, but dead right in political terms.

Oh look we've come round to America bashing again. What a surprise.

If you the place so much, why don't stopsupporting it. Stop buying our products, and by all means stop visiting the place.

Galloway has a marvellous way of expressing himself sometimes.

Pity about big brother though. What a creep he is.

You mean someone is actually still listening to that parrot George Galloway! PMSL! Well, maybe so. In Ingerlund.

Wonder if he's mates w/Tommy Sheridan now.

Why does criticising the US foreign policy and its doolally president = US bashing ?

it's a democratically-elected government, piffle. it's therefore a reflection on its own people, well, its voters.

it raises hackles here when people make sweeping generalisations about brits based on blair's actions.

well, somehow or another, enough people voted for him to keep him in office.

I think Tb is a total toss pot
I never voted for him
I take NO offence when he is maligned

But you do when people say things like, 'Most Kiwis are ex-cons,' I'll bet. Yet somehow it's okay on these threads to say things like 'Most Americans . . . ' 'Most Israelis . . . '

I never presumed to make generalisations for other nations where I'd never so much as lived, but it seems okay to do so here.

Let me launch into how I feel about people from southeast England, then.

Nah . . .

expat, on the one hand you're saying we shouldn't attack Bush because he was elected by the people and represents them. So an attack on Bush anounts to an attack on American people.

OTOH, you're saying that we can't make generalisations about the American people, despite the fact that, in your own words, they elected Bush and are therefore represented by him.

I do apologise Uwila. I had thought that I had used short enough words for you to understand in that thread. The fault is entirely mine, and not in any way yours. But you knew that anyway didn't you ?

I do appreciate terms like "bad idea" are open to misinterpretation to people who use superstition in place of reasoning. But if you get some holistic friend of your to read it to you slowly, you will see that I thought that burying waste in oil wells was silly.
hint: homepathy doesn't work with radiation sickness.

If I say "The Israelis do such-and-such", then I think it is usually apparent from the context that I am talking about the Israeli government. Obviously, not every single member of its popluation agrees with and supports what their government is doing in its name.

Same goes for Britain, the US, the Palestinians... I am talking about the official stance taken by the governing bodies.

So someone could justifiably say "The British are supporting Israels's current stance". In doing so, they are not implying that every last member of the UK poplulace is egging TB on. That would be more a reflection of the fact that the UK failed to back UN calls for an immediate ceasefire. It would be an accurate statement, notwithstanding the fact that a substantial proportion of the popluation is dead against the Israeli government's current policies.

And, FWIW, I do think the US has a large part to play in the current crisis (not every last US citizen - the US government, I mean). I think what the Middle East needs is a power that could act as some sort of independent arbirator. Not having the world's only superpower effectively giving Israel the green light to continue in its current destructive vein.

Saadia I was going to say exactly that If he was democratically elected then ewe can assume that is 'most'americans.The horror of it is that Blair has got us aligned to this lunatic so we will soon be seen as the same and already are in many places

Expat it's okay to criticise American foreign policy it doesn't mean you hate americans.
I love America, have met many lovely Americans.
Hate GB and the neocons and think it's outrageous the way they back israel up.
But it doesn't mean I hate the people.

saadia
ever notice how much you use the word 'attack'?

just curious, b/c it seems some folks have to countenance just about everything in terms of attack, violence, force, etc.

as for blair, i won't be voting for him, but as i wrote before, the sad fact is, most people vote w/their purse and have very short memories.

tbh, and i wrote this last night and will write it again, seeing this as a non-brit, i take away a distressing sense of anti-semitism from this thread.

i honestly do.

there is indeed a stronger Jewish presence in the US. that may be b/c a lot of Jews went there after being run out of Europe. i can see why now.

i learned more about America from living here than i ever did in 31 years of living there.

it's been very eye-opening. the phrase like father, like son carries a lot of meaning.

I am shocked that you take away a depressing sense of anti semitism from this thread. I work with a jewish woman who completely agrees with my POV over israel.

Can one not criticise the Israeli government without being deemed anti-semitic?

Expat, US anti-semitism played a large part in the founding of the state of Israel. The US wanted a Jewish homeland so that they wouldn't have to accept so many Jewish refugees.
In the immediate post-war period, the UK accepted substantially more Jewish refugees than did the US.
(Got to go and sort out supper now, but I will find the figures and post them later on.)

If anyone is interested, there is a program on Chgannel 4 tonight at 8pm - "Judah and Mohamed". It follows two boys in Israel and Palestine and shows how their attitudes towards the conflict are shaped by their experiences.