ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

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Here goes....

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I wish more people would come on here, putting the Israeli point of view forwards. Because it gets a bit boring when the majority of posters are essentially in agreement.

Thank you, Lisalisa, for putting your views across so articulately. You do seem to be a bit of a lone voice in the wilderness, though. Can't say I agree with much that you say, but at least you are prepared to argue coherently without resorting to insults.

As for the anti-Semitism and anti-Zionist comments...

To my mind, anti-Semitic means anti-Jewish; disliking, hating and/or looking down on someone because of the simple fact that they are Jewish.

Anti-Zionist would means being against the establishment and/or expansion of the state of Israel (I mean here expansion in the form of imigration as well as through land grabs).

I know there are lots of conflicting definitions about what these words mean, but this is the sense in which I use them.

So, an anti-Semitic person could well be a Zionist because such a person might well see the existence of a Jewish homeland as being a good way to "get rid" of local Jewish people.

Similarly, someone could have no problems with Jewish people as such, but not agree with the foundation and/or the expansion of the state of Israel. (Practical people, however, will probably concede that it is a bit late to do anything about its founding and will concentrate more on how best to solve the Middle East conflict as things are today).

this thread has become your self centred farce now lisalisa, based around false allegations and paranoia. Anyone who says Israel is wrong is an anti semite. Anyone who dislikes all of the posters on the thread being called "poxy hippy wannabes" is also an anti semite.Anyone who refuses to accept that all Arab states want the total annihilation of Israel is an anti semite. Anyone who demands answers and is upset by the Palestinans and Lebanese being persecuted by Israel is an anti semite.

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quite, donnie.

lisa, the time's been called on blanket accusations of anti-semitism to stop all criticism of Israel.

I've read this thread and I can't see one single example of "filthy anti-Semitism". I can see lots of anti Zionism though. I agree with the previous poster, you'll have to come up with something a bit better than the hackneyed old cry of "Anti-Semitism!! Anti-Semitism!!" if you want to argue effectively against the growing feeling of incredulous fury at what Israel is doing in Lebanon.

I think I can agree with your definitions, LucyJu. Does anyone disagree with them?

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I do find it confusing when people talk about Zionism.

As far as I can see, there is Zionism, a socialist movement based on kibutzes (I think this was the beginnings of the Jewish Labor party), Zionism, a religious movement, Zionism a right wing movement and then there is the belief that given the racist abuse that the Jews have received, particulary after WWII, it would be a good idea if they had somewhere to live where they weren't always 'other'. This last idea isn't exactly Zionism, but I think it is the one that lead to the creation of Israel. (Obviously there was the rather big problem that Israel wasn't vacant for posession in 1948...) I get the impression nowadays that people are often talking about religious Zionism, as demonstrated by people living in the occupied territories. However, I think you can oppose religious Zionism and be supportive of the existence of Israel.

Anyway, I will go with LucyJu's definition for the purpose of this thread.

Its a shame that so many people have been upset by this thread, but I suppose one thing you can learn from it is that if even a group of British mothers can't discuss Israel calmly, what hope is there of the Israelis and Palestinians sitting down to come to a sane solution

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Oh, how I have wanted to stay out of this.

I read part one of this great debate and felt shocked and saddened. Part two has simply made me feel numb and hurt.

There have been some other threads as well recently where I've just thought 'wtf is going on with the MN I love?' I understand completely the sentiment of dismay expressed by lisalisa earlier. It so doesn't feel like MN to me.

And yes, I can assure you, the disappointment is strong enough that I was wondering yesterday / the day before whether to leave too.

FWIW, I think the current military situation has not been proportionate... The headline of 'two kidnapped, 150 dead' obviously isn't terribly even, and the numbers of rockets fired into Israel vs. bombs dropped by Israel I imagine also to be similarly 'out of balance'... but what these numbers fail to reveal is that Israel has been dealing with terrorist attacks (particularly suicide bombers) on SUCH a regular basis, particularly in the last few years. In England we only hear about the 'successful' missions, but there are 'martyrs' stopped before they can kill civilians more or less weekly (reported in the Jerusalem Post etc.) which of course aren't newsworthy outside of Israel. I think it is this trickle, trickle attack that has perhaps provoked such a strong, and seemingly non-proportionate response to the kidnapping of the two soliders (and I believe the 7 others killed in that initial attack).

I have no problem with people criticsing the military response. It should be challenged, it should be debated, but some of the accompanying posts makes me feel extremely uneasy. I am not a jerk. Nor is Twig. If we feel so upset about some of the posts in this thread it is probably for good reason.

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Fantastic post, Hub. I never thought I'd hear a man say "...the MN I love..." Classic!

I'm very sorry to hear Twiglett has left. I hope she comes back. But the last time I said that it was about Aloha, who as far as I know hasn't been seen since that bloody Cartoon thread. Speaking of which, this thread is starting to resemble it.

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By email and phone I've been embarrassed into returning to this thread because I've been a coward for refusing to take on the pernicious racism embedded in a number of the postings here and chose instead to simply disappear because it seemed too difficult to face head on

I do not support the current actions taken by Israel, that much is true .. but for some reason that seems to have made it open season for anti-Jewish comments which is not what Mumsnet is about

Israel is a country lead by an elected Parliament, populated mainly by those of the Jewish faith, but also christians, muslims, buddhists etc

Britain is a countly lead by an elected Parliament, populated mainly by Christians, but also Jews, muslims, buddhists etc

Israel wages war on Lebanon
Britain wages war on Iraq

Consider the current bodycounts:

Lebanese killed by Israeli's...660-750

Israelis killed by Hezbollah... 51 (only in this conflict. 71 killed in suicide bomb attacks in last 17 months)

Civilians killed by the allies in Iraq so far: 39,593-44070
only the independently verified body count

We are so quick to judge, but what we have done is infinately worse. And nobody mentions the religion of the allies, nobody talks scathingly of the 9/11 attacks .. (have we heard enough about the loss of these 3000 and some lives? has it been written in sign language? )

and strangely, we dont get to see a lot of images of iraqi children who have been blown up. Oh wait...thats because its us thats doing it!

The first casualty of war is truth.

This is all very disappointing, that issues can't be discussed rationally. I do not expect agreement, just clarity on certain points.

Some of us disagree with the way in which Israel was created. Will the Israel supporters acknowledge that there was some unfairness in how the Palestinians were displaced?

Having said that I do accept that Israel is now there and that we have to strive for peace. But I do also understand the anger of the Palestinians. Will the Israel supporters accept that the Palestinians have some genuine grievances which need to be addressed.

At the moment, Israel by far has the upper hand in this conflict. I do accept that Israel is motivated by the need for self-defence, but will the Israel supporters acknowledge that Israel is not totally innocent? Some of the settlements are illegal and some of its actions are aggressive and unnecessary.

BTW I have yet so see any anti-Semitism on this thread. I would say that there is a heightened sensitivity which makes people read much more into peoples' comments than was ever intended.

I hate hate hate what Israel is doing. I hate their military policies, their tactics and their agressive behaviour.
I hate the way they are killing innocent civilians and destroying Lebanese infrastructure. I hate the way they are occupying Palestinian land and the way Israeli arabs are treated as second class citizens with Israel. I hate the wall.

Feeling like does not make me anti-semitic in the slightest.
If anyone interprets my views as such then I would be shocked, horrified and insulted. And frankly they would be completely misguided.

There are two jewish people in my office who feel exactly the same way as me.

Lisa - what I was trying to say, in a simple a manner as possible, is that POLITICAL CONCEPTS such as fascism or democracy cannot be boiled down to definitions in a dictionary.

You obvioulsy find this impossible to comprehend.

If this were the case, all Professors of History and Politics at the top universities in this country would be out of a job and no one would ever do a politics PhD, they would just flip through their Oxford Illustrated for the answers !

You seem to have a very naive grasp of political issues, which I may say so explains your "fight to the death" with the posters here.

Just another correction: you bundled in Iran with other Arabs who have attacked Israel. I quote:

"Israel has never waged war against the arab nations without being attacked first (Syria, Jordan, Iran etc)".

When in God's name did IRAN attack Israel ? Can you give us the date of this attack ? It is yet another figment of your imagination of history.

Also, Iranians are NOT Arabs. Iranians are non-semitic (the Arabs like the Jews are semites).

The word Iran literally means "Land of the Aryans" in the Persian language.

I am not wearing "rose-tinted spectacles" when I look at the situation between Israel and her Arab neighbours, thank you lisalisa. Patronising anyone who disagrees with your views is equally as ineffectual and low as yelling "Anti-Semitism!!" every time someone criticises Israel's shocking and illegal behaviour.

I am not prone to wearing "rose-tinted spectacles". I am no expert in Middle Eastern politics, but I am fairly well-educated and aware, I have a modern history degree and consider myself interested in politics. There are so many contributors to this thread who have disagreed with your position - are we ALL either raving anti-Semitic racist monsters or blinkered idiots? I think not.

Twiglett - I did not vote for Labour, and never do vote for Labour. In fact I don't vote for either of this country's main parties.

This thread is about Israel's violations of humanitarian and moral codes and its persistent breaches of international law. As far as I am concerned, the Jewish faith is irrelevant to the debate. We are talking about the actions of a so-called democratically elected state actor, not the Jewish faith.

Those who see this thread as an attack on Jews and Judaism have a problem separating criticism of Israel with criticism of the Jews.

If this thread were about Iraq I would very much voice my concerns over the UK's violation of international law and the atrocities committted IN MY NAME as a British citizen both in Iraq and in Afghanistan. I was totally opposed to the Iraq invasion and very vocal about it even before it began and made myself very unpopular with my friends and work colleagues some of whom did and do support it.

"MY country/religion right or wrong" just doesn't work for me, nor for many others here who seem to be both British and opposed to the wars created by that cretin called Blair.

The same appears not true of some of the Jewish people on this thread. They seem to have such an emotional/irrational attachment to Israel that they are totally oblivious to the atrocities it commits.