ISRAEL;WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING... PART II

[UCM]

Here goes....

Twiglett, I'm sure you'd find the majority of posters on this thread criticising Israel's actions have been similarly outraged and disgusted by what is being done in Iraq in our names. That's certinly true in my case anyway. But two wrongs don't make a right, do they?

And please don't leave . If you think there really are racists here, stay and oppose them. Don't leave MN because of it.

I do not think that the Jewish FAITH, i.e. as a set of religious beliefs and ideologies should be immune to criticism.

The "truth" as you say will out. All religions should be the subject of debate and criticism. This is in the nature of intellectual debate.

Anyway, given that as far as I can work out, most people in his party and his advisors in the Foreign Office are opposed to Blair's stance on Israel, do people think that this will be the final nail in his coffin?

Has Gordon Brown expressed a view on any of this? Or, given Twiglett's shocking figures on Iraq can he pretty much do anything he wants?

And I hate what's being done in Iraq too.
And I hate what is happening in northern Sudan, and in Burma and in North Korea.

I do not reserve my ire only for Israel.

Brown has remained totally schtum throughout, so typical of that creepy bastard ! He never says anything so that people won't criticise him for saying it so that he can be PM. God help us. We have another moron waiting in line to be our next PM.

Mimiyello, isn't there a difference between the Jewish faiths and other faiths in that you don't need to be a practising Jew to be a victim of anti-semitism (or be a Jewish Israeli citizen). Also, as with other faiths I think you need to be very specific when you criscise. I think some of the accusations of anti-semetism on this thread have been made because of generalisations (and to be fair there have been some equally general and questionable remarks about muslims).

As far as I see it, this shouldn't be about Judaism, anti-Semitism, Muslims or Israel, It's about WAR

It's about whether it's right to deal with terrorism in such a way that hundreds of innocent people are murdered, and a previously managable situation has become all out war.

I don't deny that Hezbollah are the instigators of the current situation, but to say that the Israeli response has been heavy handed and indiscriminate is an understatement. It doesn't help that the bombs landing in Lebanon have 'made in the USA' written all over them.

Twiglett, I think your comparison with the war in Iraq is irrelevant, I'm almost positive that most people involved in this debate are just as saddened and outraged by the conflict there as they are about the current situation.

If you want to judge the UK on its response to terrorism, look back a couple of decades, did we bomb the shit out of N.Ireland in order to eliminate a terrorist minority who were bombing the UK mainland?? No.

Isreal has one of the most professional SS divisions in the world, and to suggest that Hezbollah couldn't have been dealt with in a more covert and discreet manner is ridiculous.

This problem has no solution as far as I can see, but in the absence of such it still doesn't make any sense to kill children does it?

Yes the situation in Iraq is also appalling. The British ambassador has predicted civil war there. How the hell can the British govt justify what they have done there. It's dangerous and I would go so far as to say evil meddling.

Of course Saddam was no good but what they have replaced him with is no better.

The so-called war on terrorism will not be won with aggression. People all need to realise that we have to share this planet, we are all human's with equal rights and demonising people will just perpetuate stereotypes and fuel more hatred.
If we here, all parents with a vested interest in the future, on this board cannot get past our differences and agree on treating all peoples with humanity, then wars and aggression will be our children's future.

Missy - some excellent points.

Platypus: absolutley right what you say about not having to be a practicisng Jew in order to be the vicitim of anti-semitism.

The same goes for those who are born into the Mulsim faith or any other faith for that matter. It depends on what you are saying and how you are saying it.

You do NOT need to be a practising Muslim to be offended by say cartoons of Muhammed. I have been told this by my secular Muslim friends. They felt offended by the depictions of Muhammed as a terrorist although they are not practicing Muslims (they don't go the Mosque, they drink, they eat pork, not that interested in their religion, etc).

That is because Muhammed was an Arab as well as the founder of his religion. Depicting him as a terrorist was seen as racist in the sense that it went to the root of their culture. However, none of them object to the Govt. of Saudi Arabia or some other ultra-right Arab regime being ridiculed. They do not see the ridicule of their Govts. or their armies as some how racist.

I do not think it is helpful for the sake of intelligent debate nor very polite to demean a person's religion. But demeaning and racist behaviour is very different from criticising the State of Israel, isn't it ?

Missy - you are right about the covert activity that can be used to eliminate Hizbollah. In fact Mossad has been eliminating Arabs they don't like for many years by kidnapping and killing, poisening, etc. This is well-documented.

I think Israel knows that Hizbollah, due to it's grass roots support among the Lebanese Shia as well the backing of other states is very difficult to elimiante.

It is a Vietnam situation, they are trying to elimante an enemy that has the support of millions of people and is well-trained in guerilla tactics.

It will end just like Vietnam too. The superior military power can't win and he knows it. Even if Hizbollah falls, something else will crop up to replace it. That is in the nature of orgs. like Hizbollah and Hamas that have grassroots support.

mimiyello - if you are correct and Hezbollah and Hamas are impossible to deter, Israel might as well just roll over and give 'em what they want

I'll try again here

What are you saying rabbit ?

Are you suggesting that these are the ONLY choices for Israel:

1. sit still and get suicide-bombed out of existence
2. don't sit down, go and invade and murder your neighbours' women and children ?

How about sit down and TALK or even cease fire when most of the world (excl. US And UK of course) is begging you to ?

When a discussion starts using phrases like 'zionist plot' to discuss the holocaust, or to describe anti-semitism as 'that hackneyed old cry' then surely it is time for all decent people to disassociate themselves from such views.
Would we tolerate black people being told that racism is 'that hackneyed old cry' or sneering at a Croatian Muslim's distress about the mass killings in the former Yugoslavia? I truly think not.
What has happened in the Lebanon is appalling, distressing and shocking. But if anyone thinks for one moment that Hamas and Hezobollah havn't spent the last who knows how many years dreaming of the same things happening in the streets of Tel Aviv is a fool. The only reason it isn't happening in Tel Aviv is because Hezbollah's rockets aren't quite good enough, nothing to do with their inherent decency. They long and yearn to kill more Jews.
Of course there should be a cease-fire. Of course this must stop. But do you really believe it is as simple as 'if only Israel would behave nicely it would be surrounded by friends'? Ignoring anti-Jewish racism in the Arab world is extremely convenient but morally duplicitous.
When the Danish cartoons were published, Arab newspapers decided to retaliate. How? By inviting scurrilous cartoons about Danes? Of course not. They invited readers to submit obscene cartoons about Jews. And to their enormous credit, the Jerusalem Post's staff set up a rival competition, declaring that nobody was allowed to make fun of the Jews more than the Jews.
Hezbollah is a disgusting terrorist organisation funded by some of the most obscene states on earth including Syria and Iran, for whom anti-semitism is as natural as breathing. I pity the poor Lebanese who have these monsters embedded in their country.

i have been extremely vocal about my disgust and what UK and USA have been doing in Iraq for quite a while on MN. If I am equally vocal about what Israel is currently doing, am i now an anti-semite? This accusation keeps on coming back at a conveniently generalized set of 'and other posters' If anything I have said is anti semite please let me know, and have the courage to name those you cast such serious saccusations at. Otherwise, it does seem that one cannot criticize Israel's tactics at all without being labelled an anti semite. Lisalisa, you have been insulting in many ways, and you feel it is legitimate for you to do so as you feel you have the moral high ground, but not for others. I never quite trust people's opinions when they are morally so black and white, whatever religious or political background they come from.

I do not support Hezbollah or Hamas, or their tactics. But intention is not the same as carrying out. at the moment, innocent Lebanese people are dying in shed loads, and Israel's military capacity is vastly greater than Hezbollah's.

sorrell, gs mentioned the "hackneyed old cry" of anti-semitism meaning that there isn't any real anti-semitism on this thread. She wasn't belittling real racism. And she's right - there isn't any real racism on this thread. a few badly chosen phrases maybe, but none as badly chosen as the description of intelligent women who disagree with Israel's actions as anti-semites.

sorrell - most of us here are interested in facts not propoganda.

Where is your evidence that Hizbollah is only interested in taking over Tel Aviv ?

I have known many Lebanese who support Hizbollah. They have absolutely NO interest whatsoever to dance in the streets of Tel Aviv nor to occupy any part of Israel.

The country has been one of the bloodiest in the region, 2 decades of civil war followed by several invasions by Israel. The Lebanese want to be left in peace and for the past 2 decades Hizbollah has been the only milita army with the will and the ability to sit on the border as a buffer agaist Israeli aggression.

As for terrorists. Objectivly one needs to look at the CV's of several of Israel's leaders since 1948. There is sufficient evidence collected by international lawyers to put the likes of Sharon on the list of war criminals.

Message withdrawn

As far as I am aware there are still Unionist and IRA terrorists with weapons - the difference is that they have lost popular support (in Ireland and the US). I think there will always be mad people who want to join terrorist organisations. However I have to agree with Mimoyello that there are Lebanese people who if questioned would support Hizbollah (particularly in the weeks following 12th July), but given the choice would really rather be in a situation where they could just go about their everyday lives without even thinking about Israel. The reason I believe this is that they are human beings like me and this is what I would think if I was them.

I don't read or write Arabic or Hebrew.

I must say, I don't and have never read the Hizbollah website (didn't know there was one !!) for fun or for any other reason. I will leave that activity to Lisa !

What I do is talk and listen to my colleagues and friends whom I am very fortunate in having as they come from all corners of the world (including several Jews who are extremely intelligent, liberal people).

How many Arab or Muslim friends do you have Lisa ? I am not talking about people you meet in passing, I am talking genuine friendships. Perhaps you should find some as it may help you get some humanity.

ps - you don't have to an Arab or a Muslim to grieve for their dead children.

Good Night and Good Luck !

sorry twiglett and hub i cannot agree with you. twiglett, i feel at least as great a sense of outrage at what we have perpetrated in Iraq (as anyone who knows me on MN will testify). I don't understand the point of your post at all except if it makes the extremely widely acknowledged link between the growth of terrorism resulting in 9-11 used as justification of the invasion of iraq and directly linked to the situation in israel/palestine.

both of you: hub and twiglett, please please find me some anti-semitism on this thread: i'm not talking about a couple of words quoted out of context, i'm talking about demonstrable prejudice against jews, not israel and it's policy, jews.

i have not seen any, but am prepared to be convinced if you can find me one.

I absolutely cannot understand where you are coming from as I cannot understand anyone that is not utterly outraged at the moment at the israeli government's (not terrorist organisation, but democratically elected government and as such meant to act within international law) actions in south lebanon.

I also feel that this is exactly what I was referring to on my 'i have a dream' thread: being shut down by people not prepared to allow debate about various subjects. if you disagree with posters on here, then say so, and say why and engage with them and debate with them. that is the mumsnet I love.

Sorry, my last sentence should have read you don't have TO BE an Arab or Muslim to grieve for their dead children.

lisalisa, two simple questions,

1. Do you believe that Palestinians, Lebanese and indeed all Arabs are deserving of the same rights as Israelis?

2. Do you think that Israel has ever committed immoral acts?