New thread re Roy Meadow (no Sir!)

[Janh]

Cheeseball, specially for you, yet another thread but without the Sir! (I'll post a link from the 2nd thread).

If what we are doing here is being radical busybodies then I am proud to be one! I am so sorry your husband feels like this and won't help you escape from the burden you are under.

Many of our MPs have now seen some details of Bunglie's case which we have forwarded to them and not one has said "you shouldn't be talking about this, you are breaking the law". Those gagging orders are so wrong and will surely be overturned before long. If you have to wait until they are before you can do something about your own case then so be it - he is wrong to be so angry with you about something that wasn't your fault but you are the one who lives with him and we can't tell you what to do.

If you get a chance do think about ringing Bunglie, you don't have to tell her your name or any details at all but I'm sure it would make you feel so much better (unless the guilt at doing it made you feel worse...)

bunglie, got your email. My computer died in the middle of sending you a response(no connection) and needs to be sent off for repair. I've popped into work just to say i'm off to the protest and will write when i get back.

Yes, good luck, all of you!

There was a very good piece on Today this morning - included the statistic that a genuine MSbP diagnosis should be no more than 1 in a million (I think it was 1 million). You can listen to it here (at 0732) and there will be an extended version of part of it available on the website later. (It's about a doctor called Southall who has used MSbP like Meadow.)

I've just read this thread with tears in my eyes. Well done all of you protesting today. Well done. Just a thought but could the gagging orders now be illegal under European Human Rights legislation? But what do I know, maybe I'm completley wrong.

Just caught up with this latest RM thread - getting a bit confused! Good luck to all protesting - will be with you in spirit. I heard the piece on today this am too - was totally shocking. Perhaps worth contacting the journalist involved?

Good point WWW - probably needs to be tested in case law tho....

Best wishes to everyone at the protest today will be with you in spirit.
Prof David Southall was suspended from his NHS post some time ago although I don't know the outcome. He used hidden video cameras to try to catch parents he suspected of harming their children. Was based at the North Staffs hospital I think. Possibly, like Meadows, he saw Muchausens everywhere he looked.

Oh - look at 0843 on that Today link too - interview with Earl Howe (he used the 1 in a million statistic).

Update on David Southall: BBC

i've been following this thread from the start and just wanted to say what an amazing thread - Bunglie, Postsue and Cheeseball you've all had such great advice that I can't add to.

However, Bunglie, you write so well and so lucidly - have you thought about keeping a diary (well i suppose this thread is that) and maybe turning it into a book when you're a bit closer to the happy ending that i'm sure you're going to get. Any publishing Mumsnetters out there ?

A thought, this thread has the title of Meadows.... (NO! I am not sugesting we all move again), However I had NEVER thought about the other families that were involved with the MSBP cases due to other doctors, ie Dr Southill. I must be very narrow minded and to a certain extend self-centred. I was so happy that Meadows had been discredited as an expert witness I just assumed that it was only him! How frustrating for all the families who were diagnosed on the basis of his theory, but he did not have direct input into their cases (as he did in mine). This really has added a new perspective on it for me. I have been so self absorbed I just had not thought of this. I am phoning the solicitors this pm who are trying to put together a class action. I shall keep you posted.

Bunglie - you take my breath away. Self centred? I don't think so......Your generosity of spirit continues to amaze and inspire.

Another thought - (I must stop this thinking, it could be dretrimental to my health )
With Regard to all of the gagging orders, I do not think that anyone will lift them. Dame Butler-Sloss (Appeal court judge) opened the hearing this morning with the words of warning that there should be no identification of the parties involved, the local authorities or the doctors concerned.
We will never be able to speak out, they can't afford to let it become public just how much damage has been done?

Don't mean this to come across as it does but Bunglie - I really think that there would be such an outcry for a disabled woman like you if you went public and then was locked up for it - afterall it happened so long ago who would know who your daughter was and if I read your story in a paper and saw a picture of you I would most certainly go ballistic if I then found out you were being done for telling your story!!

Cheeseball - you do not have to ut up with violence of any kind people out there will help you - you don't even have to press charges - just get someone else to report him. You don't deserve this after all you have been through. XXX

Hi, I'm back. I met Postsue and saw Aloha. And met Angela Cannings and Penny Mellor. And numerous other parents who had their children stolen. There were lots and lots of journalists (almost more than parents) trying to get the story. And trying to figure out how to tell it without revealing identities. I was in tears several times during the morning hearing people's stories. At least there will be lots of publicity out of this. And hopefully happy endings for many of the parents.

Bunglie, I am not sure if I will be able to get my reserve laptop online and then the info. from my broken laptop onto my reserve laptop, but please send me an email so that if I do manage to get online I will have your email address. I spoke to a woman at Leigh, Day & co. who are doing a class action suit. I'm not sure if you quite fit into that, but they may be able to adivse you better than the other solicitor anyway. Her name is Jane Cooper and the number is 020.7650.1200. I also have her email, which I will email to you. She is the communications director, not a lawyer, but probably a good point of contact. I also spoke to a woman from 60 Minutes in the usa who are doing a piece and think that they may be able to get around the gagging orders. I will email you her info. All this publicity has to help you and all the other parents. By the way, have you heard from your son?

Bunglie, re Dame Butler-Sloss's opening words, she had to stress that because that's how the law stands and they wouldn't previously have had press in for a case like this, would they?

Doesn't have to mean it will always be like that!

Bunglie - the guidance which has been given to councils about this is here . It doesn't specifically mention Meadows, just saying "where the finding by the court of significant harm depended exclusively, or almost exclusively, on a serious disagreement between medical experts about the cause of harm" so children and parents affected by Southall's "diagnoses" could be covered by it too.

I'm no expert, and the circular is written in rather imprenetrable language, but it does sound to me as if your case could come under the categories for review - specifically a couple of extracts from it ...

"Where a child has been placed for adoption (whether or not a freeing order is in place), the Review of Children?s Cases Regulations 1991 do not apply. Nevertheless, where the placement is on the basis of a care order which falls within the scope of the review, the case should be included in the review of care order cases, as set out in this Circular. Similarly, where the placement is on the basis of a freeing order made following a care order that would otherwise have fallen within the scope of the review, the case should also be included in the review. The council will need to consider carefully the implications of the judgment for these cases. The reviews should be completed within the same timescales (i.e. 12 weeks) as for all other care order cases."

and ...

"In cases where an adoption order has been made Councils should ensure that their adoption support services adviser is aware of the judgment and of the content of this Circular and stands ready to provide advice and support as appropriate to adopted children and adoptive parents. Councils should also ensure that if birth parents contact them they are directed to appropriate sources of advice and support."

Hope this is of some help.

Bunglie - reading that guidance letter again and trying to see how it would be interpreted by the Councils/Social Services departments, I don't see anything which says that they have to let the people whose cases are being reviewed know that this is happening (or not). So they could comply with it, in secret, and conclude that there was no case to answer....

Also as it only talks about the 1991 regulations and I seem to recall that those weren't retrospective in the cases of children taken into care before they were passed, so they could if they wanted to conclude that your case wouldn't be included as it pre-dates them. I don't think that is the intention of the guidance, but it could be interpreted that way.

I really do think you need to get in touch with the Council involved to insist your case is included in the review. Or perhaps you could get your MP, who seems sympathetic to your case, to do the insisting for you - he might have more influence perhaps?

yes I agree with GillW, contact your mp and ask him to contact ss for you.

Back. Took ds and was extremely moved and tearful at the pictures of the stolen children and the parents there. And everyone was LOVELY to ds and not at all resentful. In fact, some of the parents have one child taken away because of a MSBP diagnosis but despite their 'dangerous, incurable mental illness' have been allowed (like Postsue) to keep other children. The whole thing is crazy and wicked. Hi Postue, that was really stressful for you I could see, are you feeling OK now? Bunglie, Cheeseball, how are you today?

I hope you have all got your cups of tea?
I feel a loooooong 'Bunglie' posting coming on...

O.K. I have spoken to someone from Leigh Day and Co. She works with Jane Cooper. We had a very long talk on the telephone and it appears that although they are putting together a class action that may not actually be of benefit to me but what I have is of great benefit to them? I really can not go into specifics. Not because I do not want to tell you but I have been advised that I should keep quiet about it. It seems that they will also look at my case from the point of view 'my Human Rights have been violated' or something like that. It seems that they have not come across anyone who has been found innocent in one court and guilty in another. They do have two cases where the Police were satisfied re 'the Parents' and then decided not to go ahead with the prosecution but the ss have still gone ahead and won custody of the child. They are certainly very clued up about it.
I explained that my main objective now was to stop my daughter from getting this letter when she turns 18. They gave me the contact name of a solicitor (who is representing one of the mothers today) and said that they will be able to help me take legal action, if it becomes necessary to stop the letter going to my dd.
Ugh! This is hard, I am having an emotional day today, but I know what I put now will probably upset someone, so please forgive me. I have had my children adopted and I know what that feels like. I know I was lucky and had an 'open' adoption, even if it was not as 'open' as it should have been. I do not think that it is right that their should be a law or whatever passed saying that ALL the adopted children should be returned to their birth parents. I think EVERY case must be looked at individually and the circumstances looked at. I think a good compromise, being fair to all, and most importantly to the welfare of the child. My thoughts are this, that where an adoption has occured and it is working it would be wrong to uproot that child again and give it back to it's birth parents. I am really sorry for upsetting anyone, I do feel that there has to be a place in that childs life for its birth parents and hence an access order could be made, if you like making the adoption an 'open' one. The child could keep the stability of the adoptive family and have 'free' unsupervised contact with it's natural family, perhaps, spend weekends with them, or go on holiday, but contact is very important. I think that if this can work with two parents in the case of a divorce then something similar could be set up for two sets of parents. Am I making sense? Because of this view I have I would find it very difficult to be part of any class action that said that all children 'stolen' due to an msbp diagnosis should be returned. I know that this must seem wrong and unfair to some people but I can not help the way I feel. My worry is that there are so many cases out there how on earth are they going to find time to review them all individually? My worry is the children, every child needs to know its parents but it also needs continuity and stability in its formative years. If I did not believe this I could not live with myself, because it would mean that I 'gave up' on my children when I knew I had a right of appeal. Am I making any sense?

You are all so right re getting my MP to contact the ss. That is exactly what the solicitor said. It seems that if I get the solicitor to do it I take it onto a higher plain, and it will be delt with by the ss legal advisors. So Yes, I will get on to my MP tomorrow and ask him to contact the ss. -Thank you.

Re my ds - have not heard back from him, I am trying to be positive in, no news is good news, but I need a bit more convincing.

Sofia- Thank you Thank you Thank you. Yes I will email you.

Postsue, I will try and stay off the icepops and speak to you later, I want to know ALL

O.K. Bunglies got it all out of her system now, very cathertic. I will try to start being rational again. What newspaper do I get tomorrow so I get a good picture of you all

There was some poor woman from the evening standard desperately trying to get a photo of "everyone" for the two hours that I was there. I don't think she succeeded. I think you should get all the papers as there were representatives there from lots of papers. It's also been all over all the news channels.

I agree with you that it's not that simple re adoptions.

Bunglie, I'm home, have you sent an email? I haven't managed to collect it. I feel naked without my laptop. And my reserve one seems like such a dinosaur and it have none of my settings on it. ugh.

bunglie, I have just read your long message and can see exactly what you are getting at re 'open' adoptions. The rights and wrongs of all this are so complex - and you know so much more about it than me. I agree with you that each case must be reviewed individually.

It sounds like yesterday's meeting was a very emotional one for you all out there. I hope the press reporting does lots of good.

O.K. letter and email sent to my M.P. asking him to contact the ss dept and prevent them from giving my dd the letter on her 18th Birthday. I hope he feels able to do this as I am so worried that if I take this situation onto a higher 'plain' and start involving solicitors that the adoptive parents will break what little contact I do have with my dd.

Sofia. Yes I did send you an email last night, did you get it?

Postsue - Are you feeling better this morning, you sounded exhausted yesterday, both mentally and physically.

Twinkie, no I do not take offense to how or what you put. Yes I am disabled and in a wheelchair. I did not tell you all this before firstly because I thought it may help identify me, but more importantly because I did not want anyone to look at my case from the point of view of a 'disabled woman' loses her children due to Meadows, but as a 'Mother'. I understand what you are saying but is it right that I use my disability now, just because I can when there are mothers out there who are not in this position. I do want to be seen as a 'normal' person and not as a disabled one where people see the chair before the person. Yes I am certain that there would be an outcry if ANY mother was imprisoned for breaking her gagging order, and I have thought about it. What stops me is that if the adoptive parents find out that I have broken the order that will give them the excuse that they want to break off contact between myself and my dd. It would show that where I have been honest and truthful with them throughout all these years, whether they believe me or not, I have. I would be doing something that was dishonest in breaking the order and they could then say to themselves If I break a court order what else am I capable of and question exactly how honest I have been. Does that make sense to anyone? Or am I still a bit 'screwed up'?

I feel as if I have so much to do at the moment and no time to do it in and I do not have the excuse of a family? How do you all cope?

Still no news from my ds. I wondered if I should send him another text, or do you think that is being 'pushy', I thought I could ask him if he had got my letter and photo?

Oh dear I think today is a neurotic Bunglie Day:9

Hi Bunglie, I suspect things willbe easier in a few months when your dd turns 18 too and you need never have any contact with the aps again. Don't text your son yet - let him have a think and gather his thoughts. It is a big deal for an 18 year old boy. You are on the right road after all these years.
Thinking of you and watching the news obsessively at the moment.