New thread re Roy Meadow (no Sir!)

[Janh]

Cheeseball, specially for you, yet another thread but without the Sir! (I'll post a link from the 2nd thread).

If what we are doing here is being radical busybodies then I am proud to be one! I am so sorry your husband feels like this and won't help you escape from the burden you are under.

Many of our MPs have now seen some details of Bunglie's case which we have forwarded to them and not one has said "you shouldn't be talking about this, you are breaking the law". Those gagging orders are so wrong and will surely be overturned before long. If you have to wait until they are before you can do something about your own case then so be it - he is wrong to be so angry with you about something that wasn't your fault but you are the one who lives with him and we can't tell you what to do.

If you get a chance do think about ringing Bunglie, you don't have to tell her your name or any details at all but I'm sure it would make you feel so much better (unless the guilt at doing it made you feel worse...)

Txt Sent.
Thanx Btroot!!

I sent " Thanx 4txt, Gr8t 2 hear from u. I look 4ward 2cing u. call anytime"

Now that I am a cool dude, do I have to wear a baseball hat on backwards and have the crotch of my jeans around my knees?

Can someone explain how I get a hotmail email address without my dh knowing? wont it show up on the computer? Where do I go to get one?

I know you must think it is bad of me to go behind my dh's back but he really is not that bad. Not many men would have stuck by their wives if she lost their children. So I understand why he gets angry and I know he does not really mean to upset me. That is why we do not talk about it 'cos its too painful for him. I think he gets a hard time from his mates for sticking with me as well so really I am very lucky.

Thanks Bunglie for the offer but I do not think that I could 'talk' to anyone yet. It is hard to explain and although I am sure you are very understanding and know what it is like to have your kid taken off you, it is easier for me sometimes to just get on with life and not open up any emotions that will make me more depressed or things worse. I do find a lot of support here, so thank you all.

What was the protest like SofiaAmes, postsue and Aloha? Did you get to meet any of the parents? were there many people there or was it just a few?

I did not feel I could go, like Bunglie I would be breaking the court order but it is a bit far for me to go, not that that is an excuse really. I think it would have caused a lot of upset but I should like to here about it. I sw one bit on the news but they only seemed to interview Angela Cannings.

Your right Bunglie, yes you are a cool Mom, but I do not understand how they can walk with their jeans almost falling off!! I hate it when they wear those hats backwards, I know it is the fashion but it looks odd to me, I too must be showing my age!

cheeseball, public libraries have free internet services - you could set up a hotmail or yahoo address for yourself there? (I do understand your loyalty to your husband but please don't say you "lost" your children - they were taken from you - he should be supporting you in trying to get them back.)

Bunglie, good to hear you are getting nearer your date with DS!

inocenteyes, if you're there today - I got your email, but my reply was returned because your inbox was full.

Quick post, and then off to Brent Cross with the ss (who was sent down with filthy old trainers a size too small, so that I would buy him a new pair ....now there's a child who should have been taken away from his mother...) Cheeseball, my understanding is that the mother whose appeal was not allowed presented evidence of 30 (!) other family members with children with breathing problems like her dd who has been taken away from her. Apnea is medically recognized as having genetic links and it is amazing to me that that evidence was either not presented or not believed in court. Basically the 3 medical "experts" testified that they could find no medical reason for the child's not breathing, so therefore it must have been the mother trying to choke her. Never mind that there was no evidence that the mother had tried to choke her (like bruises etc.). I blame a lot of this on the fact that the decision is left to usually one judge who has not had any medical training or even any science since the age of 16 or even earlier. At least in the usa (and the rest of europe) lawyers and others in the humanities are required to take some science at high school and even university level regardless of whether they are going into a scientific field. By the same token, scientists/doctors etc. are required to study english and history at university so that they can communicate their findings to everyone else. Ok now I'm off to Brent Cross. more later.

SofiaAmes -sent you an email!!!!!!!!!!
Have fun at Brent Cross.

cheeseball, sorry, meant to add - to get a hotmail account go to www.hotmail.com (I can't give you a link because when I type that in it recognises the computer and just gives me a sign-in page) and say you want a NET passport (something like that) - then you fill in a registration form on the screen and make up an id name for yourself (cheeseball might work - I don't know if there are many of those around - if there are any others just add a number to it or make up something else.)

Thank you for explaining that to me SofiaAmes. I am a little bit more confused because I would have thought that she had a cast iron case. I think now that the decission must have been a political one. That makes the whole situation awful. I can not imagine, even with my own experience, what it must be like to have your hopes raised and then just everything taken away from you because it is a hot potato as far as the government is concerned.
Those poor parents me feel as if thier world has ended. I feel as if I should be able to do something but like Bunglie I am afraid of breaking the court order. I know that they would probably not put me in prison or anything like that but I could not cope with the publicity or the emotions that it would bring to the surface. I know that makes me sound like a coward and maybe I am one but I can not see that there is much more that can be done. People have written to their M.P. showing their feelings and have demonstrated so it is in the publics mind but still it is going on and we have no way to stop it and I do not believe that Mrs Hodge asking the social services to review their files will turn up any new cases as they are not going to admit to making a mistake are they?
I am sorry this is getting like one of Bunglies looong postings, sorry Bunglie (only joking ), I actually enjoy reading them and often wondered how you manage to type so much, it must take you ages and I have now done the same.
Does anyone know about the second family?
If I use the computer at the library does it cost a lot?
postsue, you said you met the parents how did they seem to you?

Cheeseball, nothing too great to add other than i would recommend that you do not use the same name as if you decide at a later date to log on at home you may find that your husband recognises the name cheeseball. Keep you strength up and just keep doing what you need to do, we are all here for you!!!

Another comment regarding all of this. I think that as an American, I have a slightly different outlook than the typical British person. In the usa we are conditioned to question authority and the government and doctors etc. In the uk there really seems to be a culture of accepting the word of the "state" and the medical community. I have had several run-in with doctors here because I questioned what they told me. And mentioned that I had done some research either online, or in medical journals. I come from a family of scientists and minored in biology at university, so have enough education to know when something doesn't sound right (ie when 1/2 way through my 2nd pregnancy, my head was itching terribly and my gp insisted it couldn't possibly have anything to do with my pregnancy...yeah right).
Cheeseball, I think that going online at libraries is free. If not, an internet cafe usually charges £3-5 per hour. (hotmail don't charge you for an email address because they make their money off advertising....hotmail is what all the backpackers use travelling around the world).

So the appeal was lost because the child had unexplained breathing difficulties so the court assumed it must have been the mother? That's outrageous. The more I hear about the cases the more it seems mothers are guilty until proved innocent. And absence of evidence is treated as proof of guilt. Amazing. One case reported since the Cannings judgement was of a couple whose daughter had breathing difficulties in hospital. They were blamed for her death. It later emerged that breathing difficulties were a recognised side effect of the drugs prescribed in that hospital, which are not supposed to be used in children. So the doctors killed the child because they were too bloody lazy to check the standard reference book ? and then blamed the parents. And have they been struck off, or even questioned by the General Medical Council? Of course not. I've written a very long letter to my new MP (I've moved) asking him to press for lifting the gagging orders, and independent inquiries into all cases involving MSbP and into the workings of the family courts system.

I really hope that this doesnt upset (further)or offend anyone, but there is a little question that has been nagging at the back of my mind ever since i caught up with this thread. Perhaps i am not well informed enough in the case, but could someone explain to me why is seems that the mothers are held accountable every time instead of both parents. Are the fathers never around when these awful incidences occur? Why is it that that mothers who must be emotionally weak and distraught are singled out for persecution in these awful times. I apologise profusely if this is an insensetive posting but if anyone else agrees please please answer here, i do have loads more venting to do on the subject if anyone want to join me to debate it.

I think that's part of the awful witch hunt. They pick on the vultnerable (poor or minorities or uneducated or depressed or sick or abused etc.) and face it, after birth, the mother is the truly vulnerable one. Also, don't forget that often there is no criminal charge, so "officially" they are not charging anyone, just taking the child away.

thank you for agreeing with me Sofiaames i am just spitting anger here right now that i have expressed it. I just seems to add just another arena of enormous injustices inflicted upon these poor women. It must take a very strong man and marraige for the the propoganda not to get them to question the woman too!! I still dont see how it always seems to end up being the womens fault!! And by the way Sofia your attitude and energy is enormously refreshing to hear from someone who has felt alone at fighting the English system most of her life!!

I think that MSBP is a mainly 'female' illness, I don't know why perhaps someone could enlighten me?
What I can tell you is that the court was told by the ss that they had offered to set up my dh on his own, So that if he had left me they would support him and he could have had the children. I should like to make two points referring to this. Firstly my dh has always denied that this offer was made, but had it been he would not have taken it. and Secondly, I believe that this was said to the court to show how manipulating and dominating I could be, and technically 'wore the trowsers' in our relationship.
Had this offer really have been made I would have gladly left my dh so that he could have had our children. I would not have prevented him and would have made it easy for him. I would have done this because I think it would have been better for our children to have one loving natural parent than to live the next five years in a state of flux with strangers in foster homes and finally be adopted. If this makes me a 'bad' mother I am sorry, but I like any loving mother who felt she had a good marriage would have sacrificed my own relationship for that of my children.
I hope you can understand what I am trying to say. I would have given up my children to my dh without hesitation, but I do believe him when he tells me that this offer was never made to him.
Sofia, you are spot on when you say that Meadow's picked out vulnerable women.
Stace, please continue and tell us your point of view and your niggling questions. You are not saying anything that I have not already wondered and believe me you can not cause any more 'hurt'. When you have sat through weeks of evidence hearing what a 'bad person and mother' you are, and even started to believe it at certain points in your life, it is refreshing to get some of these points out into the open. I find mumsnet discussions very theraputic and I sometimes feel too close to the subject to be objective. In short, (not something I am very good at , I love you too Cheeseball ), please the more you question, the more it helps me to put an unbiased perspective on this very emotive issue. You are not critisizing, but questioning and there is a big difference so go for it.

They really tried to break your family up, and let your dh have your children, well told the court that. I thought the ss were there to help families stay together, not seperate them.

Spot on Bunglie - They said that they made the same offer to my dh. They did not. In a way I wish that they had of done, I too would have gladly given up my relationship for the sake of our dd.
Bunglie - sorry, I was only joking about your long postings, but then I think that you know that. I am amazed how you manage to write so much. Have you thought of writingt a book?

I think we are starting to see a 'new' Bunglie Cheeseball. One with more self-confidence and a wicked sense of humour. I agree Bunglie write a book, you have two readers already. I am certain it would not take you long and you may find it very cathartic (is that the word?) Didn't someone else sugest this earlier in one of the earlier threads?
Unlike you Bunglie we do not all have Broadband. Anyone else think it is time we started a new thread?
If so, what tittle, we should encompass all the victims of Meadows but also other doctors like this Southill. Any sugestions for a tittle to this new thread?

Thank you for that Bunglie, it just seems to me that unless ALL these children were in the sole care of just their mothers at the time that the sad sad occurences (whatever they may have been, by that i mean in medical terms) how come the authorities seem in almost akk cases (unless i am wrong)only held the mothers accountable!! It just seems to be so wrong and as i say its just getting at me so badly. And not that i am sticking up for the DH's of the women but when all authority has held a person accountable it must take sheer (SP) self belief to not join the ranks even a little bit. Which is where i get more and more annoyed and upset at the continual ongoing hurt and injustices causes to so many wonderful women. BTW my niggles are not questioning you or cheeseball or postsue in any way i think that all three of you are the most remarkable women i have ever had anything to do with and i truly look forward to the day that you can all be free of the ongoing pain and free to live your lives vindicated and loved openly by all. 1 more thing i do not doubt for one minute that you would have given your Dearest children to you DH and that you have and always will do whatever you consider best for them and further more i KNOW that you put in more thought and angst into every decision you make and one day they will both be so so grateful to know you.

Thank you for that stace. I do not think that all of the cases were in the sole care of the mothers but it is the woman who suffers from MSBP, for some reason men seem to be immune.
Wayward, A book! You seriously think someone would want to read my life story and then not question the validity of it's contents. I do not think that I am quite ready to open up that far and I certainly do not think that any publisher would touch me with a bargepole. Still at the thought -sorry, I know that you meant well but I do not think that anyone would believe my life story. Cathartic, yes, that it would be. I chose a word and because I can not spell very well I learn how to spell it and make it my 'word of the week', so CATHARTIC is this weeks word, thank you wayward.
As for you Cheeseball, yes I knew you were joking, no offense taken. I did a typing course when I was at School. I guess I can type faster than I can write, partly due to my disability, but I find it much easier and sometimes my fingers just run away on their own!!
You sound a lot better today Cheeseball, please do go to your library and open a hotmail account for yourself. That way you will not have to wait until your dh is out to use the computer. It is not going behind his back really. It is doing something for YOU. And YOU are a person in your own right who has feelings and thoughts that deserve to be heard. Today you have helped me - I am not just saying that, but it is true. By telling us that your dh was made the same offer as my dh, makes me feel better. I know that I am telling someone something and I do not have to justify my feelings. (although I always do, I guess it is habit). I also understand Cheeseball why you are content just to communicate on this level-no explanation is necessary.
Wicked sense of humour - Who Me? (Innocent look as if butter would not melt in mouth). One day I do hope that we can all meet and I shall pack a whoopee cushion just for you Wayward

I agree Wayward, it takes a while to download. Bunglie you sound as mad as a hatter today, what ever it is you've got or been taking can I have some too? The problem with your fingers, well that's typical. You bring them up, nurture them, wash tem, buff them, listen too them and just when you think you are getting through what happens,"They runaway".
I am feeling better today thank you.
Name for a new thread -How about just 'MSBP'?
I don't know??

As far as I can tell, Meadows did indeed claim to have 'discovered' MSbP yet has been unable to provide his original notes/evidence. B***d.

Huh! You thought I was crazy

Thank you Cheeseball, that did make me laugh.

A new name. I don't know. 'MSBP' Hmm, I see where you are coming from but I think that we should try to keep the same tittle so that people who have been following it can find it easily? Stace, you pop in what makes you notice it, what do you others think? Do we need a new thread yet. I don't know Got Broadband Heee Heee!