Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services! II

[saragossa2010]

As the other is full.
There are far too many cases where the authorities rush to remove children and do not give both parents and wider family a say. Adoption is rushed through.
The fact a senior family judge is insisting he is involved in the rest of this case is a good thing and the more cases like this which receive publicity the better.

The point is it is like justice in China and Russia. If it's secret then those involved cannot justify themselves. If we have more in the public domain that is a greater good than any risk from disclosure to the children and parents involved. it is why open justice and published judgments and rights for all those involved in child disputes to use twitter, blogs and emails and no stifling of free speech.

Thankfully things are all moving this way and we lucky to have people like JM and C Booker to give publicity to the issues which need much wider debate. I would imagine most social workers and lawyers involved in this area are very happy that the issues get more public debate not less. Most professions would.

wet, you put your finger on the point: I really don't think that either JH or CB have helped the mother in this case. They have dragged her into the limelight, as a result of which she is now breaching her own confidentiality (and that of her children) all over the Italian press. They are exploiting a woman who is or has been very ill to suit their own agenda. By putting forward a bunch of highly inaccurate facts they are giving the impression that the mother is responsible for that, even though they purport to have seen the adoption judgment which demonstrates those serious inaccuracies.

And thereby they have damaged other people who might genuinely suffer a miscarriage of justice in a case like this.

^No, it is because the local authorities are messed up by a lot of useless bureaucracy and stupid laws that actually render the whole process unmanageable.
There are lots of Italian children who grew up in foster care place until they are 20 years old.
It is that bad.^

But we have those same problems here. Useless LAs that try beyond hope to keep a child with its natural parents, LAs that were intent on only allowing kids to be adopted within their own ethnic group, LAs who refused people as potential adopters because they were too fat, LAs who dragged their heels so kids who should have been adopted never were and languished in temporary, frequently-changing foster placements.

Italian LAs don't have a monopoly on useless bureaucracy. We do a pretty good job over here too.

Am laughing at the idea of the Consultant sychiatrist as 'God'. Certainly not in the teams I have worked with and I have seen the Psychiatrist connected with this case change his diagnosis and treatment of a client because of the observations of a student nurse.

That student nurse was me.

Nothing God like at all.

Genuine question Lake, what makes you be so sure the baby would "rot in a foster place" in Italy. Where does your knowledge come from?

As far as I know there are foster families in Italy too, and have no reason to believe they are evil places to be?

Well he sounds like an excellent psychiatrist Migonette.

Very unlike the one we were dealing with who flew into a rage if remotely challanged, had considerable difficulty with his English, avoided eye contact with me preferring to look at my Ex when answering my questions and who asked me "When is your Christmas" when attempting to make the next appointment.

This one proudly told me he had considerable experience in forensic work.

Nenny Thank you for explaining your reasons re JH/CB. I'm starting to understand what's driving all this.

@ClaireTravellingCircus

In my life I met a couple of boys brought up in one of these places and one was never adopted. Of course, I met them as adults. One of them was sixteen when he was adopted by a foster family... He had spent all his life in care ;( once he said "it is amazing that all families never seemed the good one and just went back and forth from the place to the family.. Until they gave up because I was too old... Luckily someone came to my rescue".
I have my reasons to believe that it would be the same for baby P too, especially because in Italy there would be the problem of knowing all the mess...too?

Yes there are gits Wetaugust I agree and I have known a few. But in this case please be assured that this Psychiatrist truly respects the parent-child bond and would have been very saddened to make any recommendation other than reuniting them. And he is on board with cultural issues too as I have worked with him and his team developing local protocols to this end.

This Doctor is collaborative and democratic. And I have never seen him talk down to anyone whether they be a Client, Domestic, Nurse, PAM or Doctor.

@clairetravellingcircus sorry, I hit the send button too early... Foster families get tired of endless papers and bureaucracy, so the good ones look elsewhere.

@wetaugust I am sure that every country has its fair share of bad cases, bad foster families and bureaucracy. Yet, if you never lived in Italy... You have not a faint idea how bureaucracy is bad there... Only Greece can do worse! Uk is easygoing in comparison!

@nennypops I think JH didn't help this woman at all. Now in Italy she'll be forever exposed to public ridicule, unless they all pack their bags and move to another region.. Possibly with different names too.

@Mignonette - that's very reassauring to know.

@Lake - I think I know what you're referring to. Italy is probably a little less PC in general than the UK.

However I will concur that this is no comfort to those having to endure treatment from a bad psychiatrist. I just wanted to make sure that the argument wasn't being hung from the 'Bad shrink making a mistake' coatpeg in this case.

Mental Illness is never going to suit a precise one size fits all approach. Even well managed conditions w/ compliance with medication can be thrown out by the person catching the flu, D&V, going without sleep, travelling, hormonal blips and jet lag.

Once the relapse process starts it is very difficult to intercept because the nature of Psychosis and Mania is that the more ill you become, the less ill you feel. So it is NOT a case of a person usually going out of their way to stop medication; rather one tiny slip having catastrophic consequences of which the sufferer (and they do suffer) no longer has awareness of and insight into. It truly is like dominoes going down.

@Mignonette thanks for your posts clarifying the psychiatrist issue. I do think that this lady was really in a mess state when she arrived and it took a while to unravel all the bundle of her mental situation.

My question would be though... Given the international mess created by these revelations, will the baby P be assigned to the mother in the end? It is legally possible?

I expect that's what the senior judge will be investigating.

Can I just clarify that none of my posts refer to this person and case and that my comments about MI are general and not specific. In case anybody wonders. Thanks.

Nenny, claw: if all you are saying is "I think i have made it perfectly clear time and time again all I can do is give my opinion of what possible mistakes could have happened, my views and why in my opinion reform is needed"

I have given numerous views and examples of what I have based that view on, I am not going to keep repeating myself and going in circles and so have several other people.

I thought we had all agreed that there is a possibility mistakes could have been made and I have stated that I am open to the possibility that mistakes may not have been. We don't have enough facts or info to know for a fact either way.

It is just totally pointless going in circles and discussing the same points, over and over!

I think it's actually disgusting that people like JH are using a vulnerable and unwell woman in order to point score in their little vendetta. They don't appear to give a damn about her mental wellbeing (and therefore the mental wellbeing of her children) otherwise they wouldn't be dragging her through the press.

"by raising the profile of this Italian lady's case he (JH) has helped rather than hindered her" how so? doesnt help her MH. doesnt help the baby (who from sounds of it the least worst scenario which might lead to stable family upbringing is adoption, sadly....) .

DM/DT issued headlines like this topic title - "SS snatch baby from womb (for adoption) " which is patently untrue and mis represents.
JH jumps on bandwagon.
people start saying - see: SS snatch babies from wombs!

all above isnt true -
woman got v ill was sectioned, courts agreed to order a c-section to deliver baby. SS didnt get the bbay from her womb - a surgeon did...
care order put in place as mother unable to care for baby (nor extended family) . while baby is being fostered, cared for,
followed by application for adoption .

all of that done with input from various medical people judges etc.

Lake Why didn't he choose the many British cases supporting his idea of reform? Hmm the international outlet was more appealing, wasn't it?

I agree and the actual outcome of this case 'baby removed from womb' etc will draw attention.

What I despise about the whole thing is that they are exploiting the feelings of a whole family, mother and father of the baby included, to push their agenda despite none of these people is even British.

Again I agree I despise exploiting any vulnerable person or any Nationality. However cases like this can set precedents for the next and it has warranted investigation.

We certainly have Lake I have done my housework, went out and had my eyebrows waxed and got a birthday gift and that's just in between posts!

Lake, thanks for the explanation. You don't hear much about these things in Italy so it's easy to assume there no big issues.

I have to disagree with your comment re extended families though, they might be less strong the before, but they are still very much present in this country (and one of the factors preventing a complete social meltdiwn at the moment I daresay).

the DM/Dt know exactly what they are doing;

when they take a story and splash it one-sided.and bang their drum about the evil baby snatching SS. just as another paper might rather focus on the ethical dilemnas invovled in forcing a c section on a person who is sectioned... .

funny tho how DM would make this woman to be a feckless single mother with three fathers for her children none of whom she cares for herself - in another setting...

What are everyones thoughts on senior judge taking over the case?

He has chosen plenty of British cases, he probably didn't "choose" this one, rather a quick Google search will bring up either him, BF or IJ and if you don't know who they are you wouldn't know to avoid them. I've had to tell people in the past to avoid who didn't know better.

I don't know why they're on this crusade, but I do know they cause a lot of harm to these people they represent. It really is difficult to explain what they're like on a public forum without going into detail of something that shouldn't be.

A SW told me that their first experience of JH was him being carried out of a courtroom kicking and screaming. SW thought he was the client in the case until someone said who he was.

You know when you see dodgy solicitors on TV? I think the Mitchells have one in EE IIRC. They do things for their clients that they shouldn't, facilitate their behaviour and lie for them, buy them things, that sort of thing, but that's usually criminal and on TV.

I have to admit to not knowing who they are