Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

[Kungfutea]

Hmm, I'm not so sure. I honestly don't think the Palestinian leadership have ever been ready for peace. I mean, the first intifada was clearly justified and I couldn't excuse Israel's behaviour then. But the first intifada was a popular genuine uprising against a de facto oppressor who, at that point, really wasn't listening. Things were very different with the second intifada which had no justification other than Arafat not wanting his legacy to be the one which gave up on the right of return. He was a megalomaniac with dreams of grandeur.

When I think back to that time in israel (I was there almost exact same time as you, had also lived there previously including service in the Idf but left for a few years), I remember things which are almost unthinkable now. I remember Malha mall in Jerusalem being full of cars with Jordanian plates! I remember taking a couple of courses in English in public administration at the Hebrew university with quite a few participants from the PA, I remember Palestinians coming (almost) freely into Israel. Sure, there were issues, but there was a peace process. I blame Arafat for derailing that process and the American side of things corroborates this.

Actually, most orthodox men DO serve in the Idf, including most settlers (often through the hesder yeshivot). It's the ultra orthodox, the Haredim, who don't. But they, for the most part, aren't all that bothered about the settlements. They just want their benefits, their schools, and to keep a monopoly on Jewish religious life in Israel (especially marriage and divorce). But I agree, the hold the settlers have, with their messianic religious driven Zionism, over Israeli politics seems very odd to me. I remember the evacuation of the Jewish settlements in gaza and how upset people got, even people who don't support the settlers. The thing about the settlers is that they are often really amazing people - intelligent, driven, altruistic, community minded - other than their crazy religious blindless regarding the settlements and what's become now racism as well. It's so sad to see all their energies and productive talents going into such a destructive enterprise!

[AnnieLobeseder]

Oh, don't get me started on the orthodox hold over marriage and divorce!! DH and I had to get married in Cyprus and he's still angry that he couldn't marry in his own country! But that's not what this thread is about.

Broadly speaking, I think we're both on the same page....

[donnie]

what patsy said.

[Kungfutea]

Wow, that was uncalled for. But not surprising I guess.

For the record, i don't blame individual Palestinians for being left to fester in refugee camps. I think we can turn to the governments of Syria and Lebanon, for example, who have denied citizenship and most civil rights to Palestinian refugees for more than 60 years. Disgraceful but sadly overlooked.

[Kungfutea]

And why should anyone be concerned about apartheid in Lebanon against Palestinians when you can bash Israel? Smacks of hypocrisy.

[zippey]

To be honest I dont see many threads started when a Palestinian is killed. (I could be wrong though!) Best to be equal when starting these threads about one group.

Also, rememeber that Israel is one of the few countries in the world with nuclear weapons. Its no wonder that countries like Iran want them as well to protect themselves against Isreal.

[Kungfutea]

Oh, please. How on earth can you compare Iran to Israel? One is a theocratic dictatorship which oppresses women and other religions and does not tolerate any dissent and which has openly called for the destruction of Israel. The other is a modern democracy which grants freedom of religion and expression to all its citizens.

As an Israeli citizen, I am extremely glad Israel has nuclear weapons. When you have countries around baying for your destruction, calling for your annihilation, then you better have an ultimate option. I am 100% confident that Israel would never use nuclear weapons other than as the ultimate last resort ie mutually assured destruction.

Israel has never called for the annihilation of Iran, Israel has never called for the destruction of Iran. Israel has no quarrel with Iran! There is no dispute with Iran. We have no common border with Iran. Iran's beef with Israel is purely religiously and ideologically inflamed. Israel has no problem with Iran (although it would be nice if they would stop funding Hezbollah and propping up the Assad regime in Syria).

I am glad though that most world leaders, especially those of democratic countries, agree with me and recognise that there is a world of difference between a nuclear Iran and a nuclear Israel. One presents a threat to world stability, the other doesn't.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Iran needs nuclear weapons to protect itself against Israel? Oh my dear lord that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard!!!!!

Why on earth would Israel want to attack Iran? What a bizarre idea.

[Kungfutea]

And what 'liberals' sitting comfortably in the UK don't realize when they think that Israel and Iran are comparable is that Iran hates them as well!!

Let's not forget that the British embassy in Teheran was stormed in 2011.

And let's not forget how brutally pro-democracy protests were put down in 2009.

Zippey the reason the UK and other countries do not want Iran to have nuclear weapons is because they know that Iran will not hesitate to use those weapons against YOU. They know that is not the case with Israel.

This kind of unfairness really gets my goat. Justified criticism of Israeli policies (in perspective) = fair enough. Blindly bashing Israel at every opportunity and denying its very right to exist = unfair.

[zippey]

I am completely neutral in all of this, and believe no nation should possess nuclear weapons, least of all so-called terror states such as Israel and Iran. Mutually assured destruction? Lovely. I can see why Iran would want them though.

Also, I think if you look at what MA said about Israels "annihilation" it's not as extreme as KungFuTea points out. It isnt altogether pleasant either though.

I think the way the state of Israel came about after WW2 was unfair, but I think everyone agrees that there needs to be an equal two state solution.

If you want a neutral piece though, have a watch of this Interview with George Galloway and Sky News.

[Kungfutea]

George Galloway isn't neutral. He's a deluded idiot. I have zero desire to watch an interview with that waste of spcace.

I also agree that a nuclear free world would be nice. I also think it would be nice if there was no war or disease and we could all hold hands and sign kumbaya. Mutually assured destruction isn't nice but if you're surrounded by enemies who say they want to push you into the sea and deny your very right to exist, you're damn right I'm glad we have it!

And actually, MA is as extreme as I say. He's said he wants Israel wiped off the map, zionists control the world economy and the holocaust is a zionist fabrication. And he doesn't just say these things. He supplied Hamas and Hezbollah with weapons to fight the 'zionist enemy'. Even moderate Palestinians like SAeb Erkat are like 'WTF" when he criticized them for negotiating with Israel. But, yes, let's give him nuclear weapons because Israel has them.

The way Israel came about was very fair. It was the Palestinians who messed it up, they declared war (and all the arab states around). Israel certainly didn't want war. The only thing I regret is that we didn't have a state earlier so maybe some of the six million jews who were slaughtered would have had somewhere to go (they did try to get to Palestine, the British turned them back to the gas chambers and ovens in Europe).

[Kungfutea]

And, if Israel is a terror state, then the UK is a terror state and the US is a terror state. Look at what you did to Iraq FGS! You invaded and occupied a country, not because it declared war on you, not because you had a territorial dispute. No, you didn't like its leader. So you went in and tore that country to pieces. Israel is not a terror state but a modern democracy. Iran on the other hand....

[zippey]

I think we can sit here all day and disagree but lets not do that. I do think its a shame that the state of Israel was forced onto land occupied by the Palestinians by Europeans. It would have been better to give a chunk of Germany to Israel.

To get peace Im afraid both sides will need to calm down a bit and learn to forgive the horrors of the past, a bit like the Northern Ireland peace process.

[Kungfutea]

Ummm Israel wasn't forced onto land occupied by Palestinians. The Land of Israel has always been and always will be the ancestral Jewish homeland. There would be some poetic justice if a part of Germany had been given to Jews but there was ALREADY and had ALWAYS BEEN a Jewish prsence in our homeland.

My Jewish grandparents are from Hebron and were FORCED OUT by Arab riots in 1929. My family has been in Israel for more than ten generations. So who forced who out exactly? Methinks a bit too much propaganda has been listened to if you're a fan of George Galloway.

The Jewish people have as much right to self determination as any other people. If you wish to look at historic justice, the Palestinains have Jordan which was carved out by the British from mandatory Palestine and is ethnically and linguistically part of Palestine.

And there were many chances for peace over the last 60 years. The Palestinians said no each time. THey turned down the UN partition plan (if they'd have accepted the Palestinian refugee problem would never have existed), they tried to wipe Israel out in 1948 (thankfully they failed), they tried to wipe Israel out in 1967 (thankfully they failed), they declared the 'Three Nos of Khartoum' and they started the second intifada when there was already a peace process underway. There were so many opportunities.

Most of my Israeli friends and family would love nothing more than a proper peace process. It's not a question of forgiving the past. It's a question of looking to the future - and the Palestinians in Gaza, with their democractically elected (although not very democratically minded) Hamas government, ahve demonstrated what can be expected if Israel withdraws from the West Bank. Do you know how close Tul Karm is to Kfar Saba? Or Kalkilya to Netanya? Or Ramallah to Jerusalem? Have a look on a map and tell me if you'd want a Hamas led government firing missiles at you! This is my family and friends you're talking about. No thank you!!!!

[nailak]

How can white phosphorous be legitmately used in built up areas? ffs

I don't think they are as bad as each other.

[nailak]

you are an Israeli citizen? did you do your military service?

[nailak]

do most of your israeli friends support the gush settlements?

[Kungfutea]

That's right. You can ask Hamas why they fired white phosphorus shells into Israel, aiming for innocent Israeli civilians.

White phosphorus actually CAN legitimately be used in built up areas as an obscurant. It shouldn't be if there are non-lethal alternatives available, this is a legitimate criticism of Israel and, indeed, Israel no longer uses white phosphorus in built up areas as a result of this criticism (from within Israel as well as external).

White phosphorus, however, cannot be intentionally fired at civillians as Hamas did. This is a war crime.

You can also ask Hamas how they treat their own citizens (other than blowing up their own babies while aiming for Israeli civilians).

I know in which society I'd rather be a woman, gay, christian or just a political opponent.

[Kungfutea]

Which gush are you referring to? Gush katif has been completely evacuated. Are you referring to Gush Etzion?

[nailak]

you didnt answer my other questions

[nailak]

Gush Emunim

[nailak]

I agree with you, I dont think Palestinians want peace with Zionists

[Kungfutea]

No, Gush Emunim is pretty much on the right wing fringe (and no longer exists anyhow). I don't know personally know anyone who is out there like that although I've had some acquaintances who've been pretty hard core in some of the settlements around Jerusalem and I have a few friends and family who live in settlements (mainly the de facto suburbs around Jerusalem like Maaleh Adumim).

On the other hand, I have a friend who has gone to jail for refusing to serve in the territories and guard illegal (by Israeli law) settlements. I have a friend who is a human rights lawyer and who represents Palestinians in detention. I have a friend who every week went to Billin to protest with Palestinians against the appropriate on land for the wall.