Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

[AnnieLobeseder]

PS, kungfu, have you figured out my name?

[drjohnsonscat]

Firstly, on what basis have you decided Israel is not ready to compromise?

Sadly on the basis of threads like yours. I hold no brief for Palestine at all and I have every sympathy with the suffering of the Israeli people being bombed. Im sure you're right about Arafat and some of the Arabs I know would agree. But that doesnt get you any further forward. The way Israel is approaching this, there simply will not be peace.

You could observe what's worked elsewhere and experiment, follow that path in the recognition of the fact that what's been done to date has not worked. Or you could prefer to be 'right' and stuck exactly where you are.


Btw I think you don't show much awareness re the fertility rate. Strangely this is what happens in times of conflict and economic failure. Humans are strange creatures.

[Kungfutea]

You see, drjohnson, in order to move forward Israel needs a partner. I'm not saying that the current Israeli administration is doing much to further peace but they are a result of people's skepticism having tried and failed so many times. However, the Palestinians need to show that they are ready for peace, that if Israel withdrew from the WB, it won't be faced with gaza Mach II.

And I'm afraid you are yet again wrong regarding fertility. Fertility usually decreases in times of conflict and increases POST conflict. Similarly, during economic failure, fertility usually declines, people usually postpone having children in times of crisis. There are a number of research articles that have actually demonstrated that Palestinian fertility rates are politically motivated. More fool them I say, the ones they're really hurting are their own children.

[Kungfutea]

Mondrian

I think you attribute too much fore planning and forethought to the fractured and mutliparty Israeli system of government. There are indeed some groups who seek to establish scattered settlements in order to prevent a peace process. They often have the govt by the curly wurlies for various reasons and its not something id support. However, if Israel decided to evacuate, they'd have to go, just like Israel offered at camp David and annapolis and did in gaza and sinai.

I'm not sure why you think there aren't cities in the west bank - have you not heard of maale adumim and ariel? I don't think theyll necessarily be easier to evacuate, I think it's the size and type of settler population which is important.

[Kungfutea]

Thanks Annie!

Have you noticed how the ranters come along, spew out their hatred and then just go even though i respond to their points. Either they just want a bunfight or they don't want to listen.

Yes, figured out your name :) very clever - although why so negative?

[Mondrian]

Kungfu - hope I'm not on your list of ranters!

I am sure there are lots of moderates in Israel with vastly different ideas on how to move forward as a country but to me in looks like they are a minority. Unfortunately violence creates violence and fanaticism creates fanaticism which is what we have in the Israeli / Palestinian issue with both sides blaming the other.

It's a pity Israel is putting so much resources into PR & modern warfare, (lots of activist in all social media sites, strongest lobby group in USA, over 500 doctorates in GPS which is more than any country in the world) and hardly any resources directed at a viable 2 nation solution.

[Kungfutea]

I think its clear who the 'rant and runners' are.

I'd also like to see Israel putting more resources into helping the Palestinians build up the institutions needed for a democratic and well governed state.

The vast majority of Israelis would support a two state solution if they had confidence that the Palestinian state would be peaceful and not a puppet state of Iran.

[Mondrian]

Good job I am not Palestinian as I would have taken offence at my (non-existant) state being called a puppet. Anyway the conversation is not really heading anywhere useful unless your definition of useful is Palestinian bashing so I bid you farewell and wish you, Israel & Palestine a happy co-existence.

[Kungfutea]

Really? So what would you call Syria, Lebanon and the hamas led regime in gaza? Or is that offensive to syrians? Saying that Israelis fear that a Palestinian state will become a proxy for Iran in proximity to Israel is being realistic not offensive.

I recommend you read a bit more about what Iran is up to in the region before you take offense in the name of the Palestinians! Ridiculous.

[defuse]

I take it you were calling me the ranter and runner? Well, i came back when i could. You can always try and justify your point but it does not make it right.

Interesting how you missed the point about the broken UN resolutions. Peaceful ation and that! By the way, i am referring to Israeli governments when i talk of israel and not the people as i can only go on what our delightful governments ave been doing over the decades to the palestinian people.

Dont talk of peace and states and then go on to call it a puppet-state. you are so hypocritical and israel has no intention to see a palestinian state. you might call this vitriol, but it is a truth that you all know in your heart of hearts. Gloss it over and lie as much as you like. Israel is an oppressor, aggressor and the biggest threat to peace as it is war hungry, using it as an excuse to bomb any tiny palestinian infrastructure into rubble.

You can come on here and try to pretend that you want to see a palestinian state, very few will believe you, but the palestinians see you for what you are. None of the palestinians believe you because they have suffered and been killed and robbed of their homes and land on which israelis have settled. And they still are suffering. They still have the keys in the hope that they may go back. Is Israel going to allow that - not a chance!

[defuse]

Ation is supposed to read nation!

[defuse]

'Our delightful government' should say 'your delightful government'

[Kungfutea]

No, maybe a ranter and ranter?

Israel has every intention of seeing a peaceful Palestinian state. This is why it was offered at Annapolis and camp David. Unfortunately, the Palestinians aren't yet ready to give up their dream of having it all. Maybe in a few years down the line they will be, I just hope Israel will still be. This has been independently corroborated by observers at these processes.

I'm sorry, but its laughable that you have never spoken with an Israeli yet you know with your magic psychic vision that Israelis know, in their heart of hearts, that israel will never allow a Palestinian state. How do you know this startling fact when you have never spoken with an Israeli? I can tell you (I am Israeli, speak Hebrew, lived in Israel so possibly have a little more knowledge then you but still cannot see into people's heart of hearts) that you are wrong. The vast majority of Israelis would love to see a peaceful Palestinian state living side by side with isrsel. But they're scared that it'll be a repeat of gaza.

Why is it hypocritical to worried about an Iranian puppet state? If you had Hamas as your neighbour, perhaps it'd worry you as well (or maybe not, perhaps you'd like to see a Hamas run society in the uk as well?)

If Israel is war hungry, then why did it make peace with Egypt and jordan? Why did it evacuate the gaza strip? You see, your rhetoric doesn't match reality. Surely a war hungry country wouldn't have given up all the Sinai for peace? And this is because Israel is not war hungry.

I'm trying to PRETEND I want a palestinian state? That's quite hilarious! Now why would i do that? Glad you have managed to find out my true feelings and revealed them to me here with your psychic vision. Goodness, all this time I was just pretending. (I'm guessing here that you're not referring to governments but to me personally which is really quite offensive but I guess us Israelis are all such nasty oppressors that we don't have feelings)

Palestinians robbed my grandparents of their home btw but I guess that also won't fit your narrative.

No, Israel isn't going to allow millions of Palestinians to move to Israel. That would equal the destruction of Israel. It's exactly this point which the palestinians need to compromise on - they can't have their own state and isrsel as well. I'm sorry about that but 65 years later, time to move on. My grandparents were expelled from Hebron in 1929 by palestinain riots but I haven't kept the key to their house.

[Kungfutea]

Btw, although you claim to speak in the name of all Palestinians and you claim that none believe me (i just find this sooooo bizarre, I'm assuming you're not even Palestinian!), ihave quite a few palestinian friends having volunteered for an NGO working with palestinian and israeli youth when I lived in Jerusalem. My husband also worked at a mixed school with both Palestinian and Israeli children, he's fluent in Arabic and has an ma in Islamic studies so he has plenty of lovely Palestinian friends from his work and from his studies.

Funnily enough, they don't agree with you and, yes, they do believe me. There are many moderate Palestinians whose voices are unfortunately silenced.

[infamouspoo]

Thankyou Kungfu for this thread. I am jewish but have never been to Israel so dont know what to believe. Its been very enlightening reading your posts and I think they have been very balanced and fair as I usually hear from Palestinian friends only about the atrocities and from Israeli friends only about 'dirty Arabs' so thankyou.
Chag Sameach for today.

[Kungfutea]

Thank you infamous and chag sameach!

I found your post a bit depressing, it's sad you're hearing such negativity from both sides.

If you want a bit of inspiration, I just saw a great movie called 'my so called enemy'. It was really good!
mysocalledenemy.com/

[defuse]

Yes, you just keep churning out your blinkered and sanitised version of events. Next, you will be telling everyone that israel has been all about winning palestininan hearts! I have said time and time again that i am talking of israeli government and not israeli people. But you like to ignore what doesnt suit you, dont you.

Tell you what, get out of your settlements, swap what you have with palestinians, live under their rules, the way you make them live under your rules, then try to create a peaceful 2 state solution. Go live like your government forces them to live and then get back on your high horse.

You just keep killing love....then keep feeling shocked why desperation gives way to bomb attacks!

Lovely bit of propaganda that you have started here, you havent fooled many. I have noticed people cannot be bothered to engage with you on this thread because of your skewed sense of reality.

Israel has the blood of arabs on its hands - that's most of its neighbours. It has blood of british youth on its hands who went in and tried to help the palestinians.

It is in violation of UN resolutions - a direct challenge to peace. Your government carries out state terrorism, apartheid, assassinations. Yet, you expect people to make peace with this tyranny. Dream on!

There are palestinian 6 year old little girls who are so emotionally scarred and wanting revenge because they have had your government drop bombs on their families and have lost everyone. There are palestinian people trying to give these little girls limited help and hope they will not take revenge by using limited resources such as art! What chance does a few crayons have when your government has wiped out their families.

There is the young man who a promising student and was studying law and his entire family was wiped out. He couldnt continue with studies anymore. He just wants revenge.

I do not agree with violence, nor tit for tat, but find it astonishing that your governments murders away, then when an attack happens there your government cries blue murder.

These two people i have mentioned above were on the news and on documentaries - their stories are not uncommon. Your government has left a trail of destruction and continues to destroy arabs and all you can do is Come on here and talk about their suffering as if its nothing. Your government has done absolutely nothing for you to feel smug about - unless you like feeling smug about palestinian massacres.

You carry on looking down your nose at the very real suffering and hey, lets focus on their population control issues! You know what your goverment's response will be soon to control the palestinian population don't you!

So you carry on with your rubbish and you will find very few will believe you. The israeli government's track record as violating UN resolutions, blood-thirsty, land-greedy and war-mongering, speaks volumes for itself.

FYI, hamas would never have gained the popularity that it did, had it not been for the constant atrocities that your government committed. Food for thought.

Goodbye.

[Kungfutea]

It's a bit difficult to respond to rants but I shall try since there is so much misinformation and Ill ignore the insults and childish bits if thats ok with you. I'm glad though that you realise that Israeli people are actually quite nice :)

I agree that israel should get out of the settlements, they should never have been built in the first place. The Palestinians are quite right that it's wrong to have built them.

No, I wouldn't want to swap with the Palestinians. Not just because of the Israeli occupation but because, as a woman, I really wouldn't want the restrictions of palestinian society and the Islamic fundamentalism which is taking hold there. I like being able to wear what I want, say what I want. Israel has built a thriving, liberal, western democracy, i like that kind of society. I'm not sure what you're trying to say though - that the Palestinians don't want a 2 state solution because isrsel is so terrible? Then what do they want? To carry on living like they are? All of israel? The 2 state solution is the only viable option. Id also like to make peace with the swedes, they seem so much more rational than the Palestinians. The only trouble is you have to make peace with your enemies, not your friends.

I appreciate there's been a lot of heart ache on the Palestinian side. There's also been a lot on the Israeli side. A good friend of mine was blown up by a Palestinian car bomb. She was 27 when she died, an only child. I had to go to her funeral, look at her parents' devastated faces. They don't want revenge, only an end to this. When i worked in Jerusalem, 2 colleagues in 2 separate terror attacks (one on a bus, one in a cafe) lost teenage children. They didn't talk of revenge, they were just sad. It was awful seeing their grey faces (literally grey, i cant explain it). Unlike you, this isnt just on tv and on documentaries for me, this is real. I'm glad you don't condone violence, neither do I.

I also don't look down at anyone's suffering which is why I volunteered in an NGO working with Israelis and Palestinians when I lived in Israel. It's also why I find it amusing that you're calling me blinkered when it seems that your knowledge is gathered from tv and not real life experience!

I did snort my tea all over my keyboard when I saw that you thought that the British came to help the Palestinians. Seriously? I think you need to do a little more reading about middle east history. Firstly, the British came to palestine in 1917 following the collapse of the ottoman empire and were very supportive to the Jews at first. Have you ever heard of the Balfour declaration where the British government expressed its support for a Jewish homeland? The Arabs slaughtered many many British youth doing the revolts in the 1930s and the British worked hand in hand with the Jewish community in Palestine at that time. Have a read about orde wingate, a British officer who helped the Jews establish a regular army. Then in ww2, the Jews from Palestine fought shoulder to shoulder with the British. The Arabs didn't. In fact, the mufti of Jerusalem was great pals with hitler. There was a Jewish terror underground post 1945, mainly composed of young people who had emerged from the camps of Europe. They did not have widespread support among the Jewish population who worked with the British to have them arrested (it was called the saison, you can google it). The British turned it over to the UN who came up with the partition plan which the Palestinians promptly rejected (I know UN resolutions concern you greatly - if only this one had been accepted, all the rest could have been avoided). At this point, the British just wanted out and they did just that.

Hamas did not gain popularity because of Israeli 'atrocities'. Islamic fundamentalism is on the rise throughout the Arab and Muslim world. Look at who won elections in Egypt? I suspect the ridiculous amount of corruption in the Palestinian authority probably didn't help either. But as the saying goes, if you sleep with dogs, don't be surprised if you wake up with fleas.

[Mondrian]

Twisting historical facts has always been a trademark of Israeli activists on social media sites - see if you can find the clip of the cold blooded shooting of the 12 year old Muhammad al-Durrah on YouTube. You won't, it's been deleted, disappeared ... Most of us remember and are still haunted by the images we saw on news clips all over the world in September 2000 when unarmed 12 yr old Muhammad was shot dead while being shielded by his unarmed father behind a barrel. This clip has now been erased from YouTube and instead replaced by "manufactured views" distorting all the facts using sophisticated methods (expensive, big budget).

As for the role of the British vs Zionist conflict, please read up on the principals the "Lehi" was formed by Avraham Stern out of "Etzel" and how Menachem Begin radicalised and adopted anti-British stance when he took over the Etzel. Hanganah, Etzel & the Stern gang (Lehi) all joined up against the British creating the unified Jewish resistance movement resulting in Bombing of the British Military Headquarters in the King David Hotel killing 92 people.

While the Zionist movement started pro british with the likes of Weizmann with the anti-zionist tone of the British goverment the Leadership was taken over by the US Jews such as David Ben-Gurion. It was ultimately US pressure on the cash strapped and weak post-war economy of Britain that forced the British government of the time to re-think its policy.

So please have some respect for MNers, it's not Facebook. Your audience is very educated and opinionated, you are not going to win many friends by brandishing a few half facts, distorted historical events and scary name dropping. Either get your facts right or resign your seat to a more senior social media activist.

To prove my point out of the previous 94 postings on this thread you have managed to engage very few now Jewish posters (3-4) who have stayed the course, and even then they are posting out of frustration (like me) and not interest ... Doesn't that tell you anything?

[Kungfutea]

David Ben Gurion was a US Jew? Really?

If you're going to lecture, at least get your facts straight!

[Kungfutea]

BTW mondrian, I'm also posting out of frustration not interest. Doesn't that tell you anything?

[Mondrian]

I am so glad that your only beef with my posting was that Gurion was not a US backed Jew.

[Mondrian]

On a series note please look at the history of Northern Ireland troubles and how a piece process was started and how the British government brought it to an end. Many similarities between NI (catholic vs Protestant, 50/50) and Israel/Palestinian (Arab vs Jews, 50/50). I honestly believe that it can be done but Israelis like you hold most of keys ... You can make a difference.

[Kungfutea]

Actually I have plenty more to say about the inaccuracies in your post but I've been on my phone so only able to give brief answers. Watch this space...

Good you admitted your mistake although the anti smeitic undercurrents aren't so pleasant.

[defuse]

I think i will follow suit like other mnetters and just ignore you. As mondrian says, not many people have time for your lies.

You claim to work for NGO with israelis and palestinians, and yet you refer to palestinians as not-so-rational. What a great assett you are to that NGO! Frankly, i find your attitude disgusting.

Try not to snort and choke on your tea. You are so busy twisting things that you havent actually bothered to understand what i was talking about. Before you start to gleefully lecture about the involvement of britain in israel, just one little point - i did not mention ' involvement of Britain', i said british youth.... remember Tom Hurndall?? Forget 1917, i am talking of 2003. Your army shot him in the head when he was trying to save palestinian children from bullets. He went to pick a child up, when they shot him. Your government lied and tried to blame palestinians.

Let me jog your selective memory

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/10/israel1

Nobody believes your government's lies and very few believe your lies.

I am done with you.