Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

[Kungfutea]

Do you mean to be so rude and offensive defuse?

[Kungfutea]

mondrian
To address your points:
Twisting historical facts has always been a trademark of Israeli activists on social media sites
You mean you don't agree with them so therefore they must be twisting historical facts? I've noticed that theme right across this whole thread. Of course those big bad nasty Israelis are twisting history . Oh, wait, I've just realised, you're not including me in that are you? Am I considered an Israeli activist?

This clip has now been erased from YouTube and instead replaced by "manufactured views" distorting all the facts using sophisticated methods
Have you been reading an updated version of the 'Protocols of The Elders of Zion'? Are you seriously suggesting that Israel is policing youtube and doctoring all videos which are put up there? I mean, I love a good conspiracy theory just as much as anyone else, but don't you think you might be taking it a bit too far? Did Israel murder Dodi and Diana and fly the planes into the twin towers as well?

As for the role of the British vs Zionist conflict, please read up on the principals the "Lehi" was formed by Avraham Stern out of "Etzel" and how Menachem Begin radicalised and adopted anti-British stance when he took over the Etzel. Hanganah, Etzel & the Stern gang (Lehi) all joined up against the British creating the unified Jewish resistance movement resulting in Bombing of the British Military Headquarters in the King David Hotel killing 92 people.
This is a very confused and confusing paragraph. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But you've got a few things wrong. Firstly, the Haganah did not form a resistance with the Etzel and Lehi against the British. In actual fact, they collaborated with the British in apprehending them. I said that in my previous post. But, here, you can read all about what was called the Saison or Hunting season here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunting_Season
Things didn't culminate in the bombing of the King David Hotel. That happened in 1946. Things got far far worse after then.

The point I was making is that there was not widespread support for the LEhi and Etzel who, quite rightly, were labelled terrorist groups and that's exactly what they were. In fact Ben Guion deemed the Irgun "the enemy of the Jewish people" after the bombing of the King David Hotel.

While the Zionist movement started pro british with the likes of Weizmann with the anti-zionist tone of the British goverment the Leadership was taken over by the US Jews such as David Ben-Gurion. It was ultimately US pressure on the cash strapped and weak post-war economy of Britain that forced the British government of the time to re-think its policy.
Again, a very confused and confusing paragraph. The British govt started off very PRO zionist - that's why there was the Balfour declaration. Then they got even more pissed off with the Arabs when they started their riots in the 1930s (killing many British), they were further pissed off when the Arabs sided with Nazi Germany - but they had to suck up to them because they needed their oil. Nothing to do with US pressure. Roosevelt certainly didn't pressure them, he wasn't very supportive of Zionism. Lucky for us, Truman came into power just when we needed him. Serendipity indeed. The BRitish govt didn't rethink any policy - they just wanted out of Palestine and the mess that they'd got suck into. I'd really love to know what the source of your information is, I certaintly have never heard of your thesis and I wonder what historical evidence there is to back it up.

To prove my point out of the previous 94 postings on this thread you have managed to engage very few now Jewish posters (3-4) who have stayed the course,
As far as I can see, only one poster said that she's Jewish. I didn't say my religion and neither did anyone else so I'm not sure on what basis you've decided who's Jewish and who's not! DId you decide that anyone who supports Israel is Jewish and anyone who doesn't isn't? Perhaps you should keep your racist prejudices to yourself?

. Most of us remember and are still haunted by the images we saw on news clips all over the world in September 2000 when unarmed 12 yr old Muhammad was shot dead while being shielded by his unarmed father behind a barrel.
Yes, I was very saddened by that clip as well. However, it has since turned out that it was more than likely that he was killed by Palestinian fire. It doesn't really matter as at the end of the day there is a (probably - we're entitled to conspiracy theories as well) dead 12 year old and it's a sad sign of the conflict. But this ties into my original OP. Just as in 2009 that poor baby became a symbol of the conflict - and it turns out that it was likely that a Palestinian rocket killed him, in 2000 as Muhammad Al-Dura became a symobl, it has since turned out (through independent ballistic expert analysis) that it is more then likely that Palestinian bullets killed him. That's why the IDF rescinded its apology as it had taken responsibility and apologised at first. I know you'll shout 'liar', 'propaganda' since you find it hard to accept that Israel is not the root of all evil ('twas always thus), but here's the link to the original ballistic evidence (in French unfortunately but it was due to a libel case in a French court). I'm sure you won't believe the link to the summary in English from an ISraeli paper since we're all liars and twisters of the truth . Funnily enough, it didn't really make the papers in the UK, guess it's not all that much of a story (much better to blame Israel).
www.haaretz.com/news/independent-expert-idf-bullets-didn-t-kill-mohammed-al-dura-1.240438
www.m-r.fr/balistique.pdf

[Kungfutea]

defuse
To address your points, well, the ones I can find within the ranting anyway - do you know my kids kind of do what you do when they have a quarrel, they shout 'Mum, she's lying, she's a smelly old liar', then they stamp their feet and run off crying.

You claim to work for NGO with israelis and palestinians, and yet you refer to palestinians as not-so-rational.
You're hilarious! Firstly, I said I'd volunteered with an NGO, I never worked for one. And I didn't say the Palestinians weren't rational. I said (tongue in cheek) that the Swedes were more rational. SInce the Swedes, to me, are the epitome of rationality (don't you just love their social welfare system?) and the ones I'd really like to make peace with, being a bit less rational than the Swedes does not necessarily equal rationality. And to be honest, I don't think that the Israeli are rational either with the settlement building programme, I think it's the height of irrationality. So that's put me in a bit of a pickle since I am Israeli and I have referred to Israelis as not so rational

What a great assett you are to that NGO!
Yes, I was an asset (past tense), I don't live in Israel right now. But thank you, I like to think they felt that way.

Frankly, i find your attitude disgusting.
Likewise

i said british youth.
OK, my mistake. I didn't realise you meant ONE british youth.

Yes, you're right about Tom Hurdnall. His death was criminal and that's why the soldier who killed him was court-martialled and sentenced to 11 years in jail.

But since you're so concerned about the fate of British people in Palestine/Israel, how do you feel about these British people murdered by Palestinians such as:

Yoni Jesner - a 19 year old from Glasgow killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber
Yoni Jesner

Shmuel Mett - a 21 year old from London. Stabbed to death by a Palestinian as he walked back from praying at the Western Wall.

Shmuel Mett

Mary Jean Gardener - a bible translator from Scotland, blown up on a bus
Mary Jean Gardner

Since you're concerned also about children being shot, perhaps you'd spare a thought for Shalhevet Pass, a 10 month old baby, shot by a Palestinian sniper
Shalhevet Pass

Or perhaps a thought for 4 year old Elad Fogel and 3 month old Hadas Fogel, stabbed to death while they slept in their beds (Hadas was nearly decapitated when she had her throat slit).
Fogel family

Or perhaps 4 and 5 year old Matan and Noam Ohayon, shot by Plaesintian terrorists at point blank range
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1412962/Mother-and-two-sons-shot-dead-in-kibbutz-attack.html

You see, defuse, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict is a messy one. Criticism of Israel is fair enough and justified, and indeed comes from within Israel as well where there is a very strong civil society. Villification and demonisation of nasty brutal Israel with beatification of the poor victimised Palestinians is really not helpful at all. The Palestinians are more than capable of terror, aggression, violence and atrocities.


Nobody believes your government's lies and very few believe your lies.
Right You sound very childish when you jump up and down and shout 'liar, liar'. I am presenting my views and opinions and it's very offensive as well to constantly be accused of lying (well, it would be if I gave a flying fuck what you think! ). The adult way would be to say 'I disagree with you on that point and this is why...'. Just shouting liar is really quite pathetic.

I am done with you.
OK, ciao.
.

[Kungfutea]

One last point in response to Mondrian's post.
I honestly believe that it can be done but Israelis like you hold most of keys ... You can make a difference.

Well, I hope so too although I'm becoming a bit skeptical both because of the rise of Islamic fundametalism among the Palestinians and the turn to the right among Israelis.

What I do know is that the reason Israelis are turning to the right is not because suddenly they don't want to compromise - it's fear. It's fear after seeing the constant terror attacks since the second intifada started, it's fear of the West Bank becoming like Gaza, it's fear of Hamas who - for the moment at least, things can and do change - are committed to the destruction of Israel. If the Palestinians want to move forward and acheive concessions from the Israelis, they need to realise that they need to show that they can hold it together and things won't disintegrate like in Gaza.

However, I do think Bibi is going to drag his feet to avoid making any real decisions. I had hoped Obama would be firmer with him, especially vis a vis the settlements.

I don't think Israel holds the keys alone. It's a patnership, a process. Both sides need to be committed and prepared to compromise - the Palestinians need to be prepared to reach a final settlement.

What I do think though is that we need to bypass governments. It's the civil society which can build the bridges. There are many many organizations in Israel which are very active in this area. There are less among the Palestinians but they're there and I've love to see them strengthened. It's the dialogue, the building of bridges, trying to understand one another. I think, for now, that's the only way forward.

My money's on Israel freeing Marwan Barghouti as a grand gesture and him having the leadership (and credentials having spent time in an Israeli jail) to perhaps bring things together around a non-Hamas option. Israel refused to free him under the deal with Hamas to get Gilad Shalit back even through they freed people who'd done much worse things, I reckon they're biding their time and then they'll let him go when the time is right. Maybe Israel will also get rid of Bibi and we'll have someone decent as well. Who knows?
Marwan Barghouti

[Mondrian]

Looks like we have totally different take on history and our version of events. I think it's due to our vastly opposing value system. I hope there will come a day when you will start a thread denouncing the death of an Arab child by an Israeli soldier and an Arab starting a thread denouncing the death of a Jewish child by a Palestinian .... Only then will you both be able to reach peace. You have to value human life regardless of their race or religion.

[infamouspoo]

Its robably not a good idea to use the word 'anti-semitic'. Both Arabs and middle eastern israelis are semitic peoples.
Many jews from European descent are not.
Just my pedantic point. Anti-jewish is more correct.

Why do Palistinians living on the West Bank have no official 'state'. Why dont they have Israeli citizenship? Why do settlers rip up their olive trees while the IDF stand by and watch (I'm gettting this from Rabbi's for Human Rights by the way. We have Rabbi Ackerman come to the synagogue and recount many a tale of being betaen up by the IDF next to the Palestinian villagers he was trying to protect)
Not having a go at you KungFu but do you get to see this on Israeli TV? The only paper I see it in is Ha'aretz which does not seem to have a wide readership within Israel.

[Mondrian]

Anti-semitic is another scary word that is often used loosely to prevent criticism, it has nothing to do with the literal meaning - according to Oxford dictionary it means; hostility to or prejudice against Jews. In my case my views are aimed towards the actions of Israeli government and its activists against Palestinians. But hey when history is distorted, facts are manufactured and blatant killing of innocent women and children are ignored why stop at literal meanings of an adjective!

[infamouspoo]

anti-semitic would be hostility against semitic people's. Arabs are semitic people's too. Some people get all bent out of shape about this.

[Kungfutea]

Actually, anti semitism is defined by the Oxford English dictionary as hostility towards Jews. Whatever the origins of the word, this is the common meaning.

Mondrian. I'm not sure why you felt the need to make racist assumptions about my religion and that of other posters, you havent said why. Also the conspiracy theories relating to isrsel and the Jews (you know, jews/israelks control the media) are very typical of anti Semites. Maybe you're not but there are certainly undertones.

Part of the problem in the uk is that the anti Israeli lobby is led by the Muslim community, particularly the Pakistani one, which is known to be vociferously anti Semitic.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/03/sorry-truth-virus-anti-semitism-has-infected-british-muslim-community

You also don't know anything about my value system to make any assumptions about it. It's not a question of a different take on historical events, you've got the most basic facts wrong (like Ben gurion being American)! That's why I was interested to know where you were getting your historical information from.

Infamous
Yes you do see these things on Israeli tv. In fact, a common complaint of the right in isrsel is that the media is controlled by the left! There's no excuse for such behaviour. The Idf are often way too lax with settler violence. It is shameful and something I am deeply ashamed about.

Israeli citizenship is another matter. It's why isrsel hasn't annexed the WB like it did east Jerusalem and the golan heights (the residents of which are entitled to Israeli citizenship). But of course it's not right for people to be stateless and why I'd like to see a Palestinian state.

[Mondrian]

Ok let's test your value system - how do you feel about the death toll of Palestinians vs Jews since 1987 ratio is 6:1

[Kungfutea]

I think that's very sad.

Did you know that 5.5 million Germans died in ww2 compared with 450,000 British. Also sad. It didn't make them right.

Why did you make racist assumptions about posters' religion/ ethnicity?

[Kungfutea]

Did you also know that in 2007, twice as many Palestinians were killed by other Palestinians in political violence. 185 were killed by Israelis vs 415 by other Palestinians including 26 children. I didn't know that. So really the greatest threat to Palestinians is themselves!

[Mondrian]

Because she started a whole thread on shifting blame to Palestinians but all she has to say about 6:1 death ratio is that it's sad? Incidentally the death toll in Northern Ireland troubles was 60:40 - catholic vs Protestant British forces were responsible for 10% while the unionists were responsible for the other 30 .... Interesting comparison as now they have peace in NI, while there is no peace in sight for Israel/Palestine.

Because I am seeing a very organised campaign played out on social and traditional media against discrediting all atrocities committed by state of israel against Palestinians.

If you doubt the above statement then how Israel went for Obama pre-election was a sign of their confidence and arrogance ... Yes I know the hierarchy in Israel was very much split on this.

Because she doesn't allow palestinians to have an identity of self and mocks them as puppets of Syria/Iran.

Because she fails to mention that Israel is the only country in Middle East to have nuclear weapons and that since they are not part of the NPT they are subject to any controls.

Because none of the above will eventually lead to peace, the only purpose it serves is to justify violence against Palestinians, violence breeds violence and the vicious circle will continue.

The list can go on and on ....

[Mondrian]

BTW since you are disputing the fact that Ben Gurion was backed by USA in his anti-British stance here is a reference article for your benefit, I do look at Wikipedia too but always take their articles with a pinch of salt as its not systematically checked. www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/60297/David-Ben-Gurion

[Kungfutea]

Who's she? Are you referring to me? Is this your explanation for your racist assumptions? It's very weak. You made racist assumptions about every posters' religion/ethnicity bar one.

[Mondrian]

I am not talking to a whole race of people, i am not generalising Jews, just you - I oppose what you say and what you stand for, does that make me racist? Does it make me anti-semitic? Do you get off on calling people racist with no good reason, do you enjoy playing the victim?

[Kungfutea]

No, you said that only Jewish posters agreed with me. Not sure how you made that racist assumption. I never even said I'm Jewish. My mum isn't and I am secular. So wrong again.

[Kungfutea]

I will answer the rather silly accusations you made above in due course when I'm by a computer (BTW, haven't you stated a few times that you're done with me?)

[Mondrian]

Simple, they said they were Jewish ... anyway stop trying to turn this into an anti-semitic argument, you have pretty much mentioned it in every post since i have joined. It might have worked for you in the past but I am not allowing you to muddy the water with your cheap innuendoes. I have faith in my moral compass & choice of vocablury. You on the other hand have so far slandered Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians and pakistani's or was it just the British Pakistanis?

So lets not go down that road, that's if you are really interested in a political argument and not just bashing anything that moves within 1000 miles of Israel!

[Mondrian]

Ok that was funny with Vocabulary. As for why I came back, while I am normally not a confrontational person there is just something about you that makes me want to come back over and over again. I don't take pleasure in it but you stubbornness in dismissing so many facts got to me so I am here for good and looking forward to digging up all the facts I know about ... The assassination in Gulf, the killings aboard the Turkish mercy ship, the kidnapping of the Israeli nuclear scientist/whistleblower in Italy .... Wow so many skeletons in the closet, how could I stay away. Lets dig shall we, I am sure we will have a very informed MN audience at the end of this thread.

[infamouspoo]

I think the only person who has openly stated they are jewish is me. I'm not Israeli though and have never even visited. But thats by the by.

One thing thats always puzzled me is the billions given by the US to Israel. I assume thats so it can have a base in the middle east? I've ignored the freaky christian conspiracy theories about the jews must be in Jerusalem in order for the Messiah to come beacause a Govt wouldnt fund that as entertaining as they might be.

[Mondrian]

The Pro-Israel Lobby, headed by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, has been called the NRA of foreign policy lobbies, ?a hard-edged, pugnacious bunch that took names and kept score?. The almost-unilateral popular support of Israel in America, not to mention the nearly $3 billion in aid the country receives every year, did not come about by accident. It?s the result of over 50 years of hard lobbying. Politicians and pundits alike are quick to support the Jewish state, and reluctant to criticize it. Pro-Israel groups such as AIPAC spent close $4 million last year, ensuring that US-Israel ties will remain strong. The Pro-Israel lobby remains one of the strongest and most influential foreign-policy lobbies in the US.
www.businesspundit.com/10-of-the-biggest-lobbies-in-washington/

And since OP is a fan of Wikipedia, here is some more info on activities of this lobby .... You will see a lot of resemblance between OP's mannerism and that of AIPAC particularly in their shared use of anti-semitic to address all those who dare to express an opinion, hence why I call her a social media activist.

Response to Criticism of Israel en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States
Dr Zunes explains that while "some criticism of Israel really is rooted in anti-Semitism", it is his opinion that some members of the Israel lobby cross the line by labeling intellectually honest critics of Israel as anti-Semitic.[36] Zunes argues that the mainstream and conservative Jewish organizations have "created a climate of intimidation against many who speak out for peace and human rights or who support the Palestinians' right of self-determination."[36] Zunes has been on the receiving end of this criticism himself "As a result of my opposition to US support for the Israeli government's policies of occupation, colonization and repression, I have been deliberately misquoted, subjected to slander and libel, and falsely accused of being "anti-Semitic" and "supporting terrorism"; my children have been harassed and my university's administration has been bombarded with calls for my dismissal."[36] In an opinion piece for The Guardian, Jimmy Carter wrote that mainstream American politics does not give equal time to the Palestinian side of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and that this is due at least in part to AIPAC.[82] George Soros pointed out that there are risks associated with what was in his opinion a suppression of debate.

Read more about Dr Stephen Zunes en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Zunes

[Galvanise]

Oh dear, some major propaganda by the OP. she is addressing the points rather condescendingly and very inaccurately. She had tried to justify the building of the wall - and tried to liken it with borders. Palestine is not a self-governed state, it is a prison camp - made by israel.

[Kungfutea]

Mondrian

Simple, they said they were Jewish ... anyway stop trying to turn this into an anti-semitic argument, you have pretty much mentioned it in every post since i have joined. It might have worked for you in the past but I am not allowing you to muddy the water with your cheap innuendoes. I have faith in my moral compass & choice of vocablury.

No, 'they' didn't. One person did. Quite ironic considering that you're very quick to accuse others of half truths! You made racist assumptions about the religion of every poster and when I ask you why, you basically lie (or are perhaps very mistaken)!! To be fair to you, I think you probably didn't mean to be racist - I think you were just trying to be nasty to me - but you certainly were racist. I guess when you have blind faith in your moral compass, it's hard to admit a mistake.

I also found that sneeringly referring to the first prime minister as a dirty US backed Jew had anti-semitic undertones. It might not have been intentional but since you seem to be so acutely aware that Israelis are sensitive to anti-semitism and seem to be very active on social media, I found it rather strange. Also your rather strange assertion that Jews Israelis control youtube seemed to be taken from an updated version of the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'. But I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt that it was just clumsy phrasing and paranoia.

There's absolutely no doubt that a lot of criticism of Israel is fuelled by anti-semistism and a delegitimisation of the very right of Israel to exist. It is exemplified on this thread (both by you and defuse among others). Unfortunately, as you point out, the very real anti-semitism apparent in the anti Israel lobby (look at Lord Ahmed's rant about Jews controlling the legal system and arranging for him to go to jail because he supported Gaza!!) makes it easy for those in Israel who aren't willing to accept criticism to deflect it with cries of anti-semitism. This is a shame in my opinion since the valid criticism gets tied up with the racism. There should be no room for anti-semitism and racism among those who truly wish to see Israel and the Palestinians living in peace rather than visceral hatred of Israel and a wish to see its destruction (since its very existence is illegitimate).

You on the other hand have so far slandered Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iranians and pakistani's or was it just the British Pakistanis?

First, slander means telling something which isn't true to discredit someone. Please tell me what I have said which isn't true? But I'm glad to see that your moral compass, in which you have such blind faith allows you to bash Israel yet defend Syria and Iran, those staunch defenders of human right and liberty! Maybe you'd wish to add North Korea and Sudan to your list? Again, this kind of thinking makes me wonder, why single Israel out yet defend Iran and Syria? Tens of thousands of innocent civilians are being killed in Syria by the Iranian supported Assad, but this is slander in your book, a regime you wish to defend. Blimey, quite the moral compass!

A little advice about moral compasses. It's never a good idea to have complete faith in one's moral compass. The settlers burning Palestinian olive groves and the Palestinian suicide bomber also have complete faith in their own moral compasses. Heck, the most ardent Nazis have total faith that what they were doing was moral. So the fact that you have such faith in your moral compass is really rather worrying. I suggest you question a bit more and it might allow you to also apologise for your racist comments above rather than seek to deny them despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[Kungfutea]

Galvanise
Oh dear, some major propaganda by the OP. she is addressing the points rather condescendingly and very inaccurately. She had tried to justify the building of the wall - and tried to liken it with borders. Palestine is not a self-governed state, it is a prison camp - made by israel.

First, why are my views less legitimate than yours? Why are my views propaganda but yours aren't? I have lived different experiences than you which have led me coming to different conclusions to you regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict.

Second, I'm sorry if you find my tone condescending. I also find it condescending to have my thoughts and feelings referred to as major propaganda. Ah well. However, if you could tell me exactly what I have said that is very inaccurate then I'd appreciate it. I've tried to post here with accuracy and honesty, representing my own views. If something is inaccurate (as opposed to you just not liking what I say), then I'd appreciate if you could point it out. It's a bit like defuse and her shouts of 'liar, liar'. The devil is always in the detail

Third, the West Bank is not a prison camp. That's just hyperbole. I've been to the West Bank, it's not. Of course, there are issues with free movement of Palestinians. I'd agree that that's a problem which needs to be resolved but a prison camp it's not.

Finally, Israel is entitled to build a wall wherever it wants on its own land. I agree that the wall shouldn't have been built on Palestinian lands and there are a number of petitions in the supreme court right now which I hope are successful and will have the wall moved. At first I was opposed to the wall but, I've got to say, it's worked. There is far far less terrorism in Israel proper. It does make me sad that we've come to this and that instead of a proper peace deal, it's keeping them on one side and us on the other but there's also relief at not having to relive the awful days of 2002 and 2003 when there was a terror attack almost every other day.