Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

[Galvanise]

Bessie: ever heard of edl or bnp? They are far right and also love to feel that they too are supporting the underdog. They feel it s about identity and the feeling of fighting against a big bad oppressor....there must be one....or in their case, 2, 3, 4.........

[Kungfutea]

But that's exactly it Bessie. I think you hit the nail on the head.

I know, all too well, that Israel does things which it shouldn't do. The human rights abuses by Israel are inexcusable in my opinion (just as British abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan are) and should be investigated with people held accountable (well, the ones which are genuine, not a convicted attempted murderer with terminal cancer dying from cancer). I know that it doesn't always happen like that.

But it's not like the Palestinians are being led by fricking Gandhi and just want to sit down and sing kumbaya with us. It took them until 1992 to even come to terms with the fact that Israel even exists and some still believe that if they try hard enough, Israel will stop existing. Of course that's not going to happen.

I know people in Israel who think the Palestinians are 'too vile' as Galvanise put it to make peace with us. I'm sure there are Palestinians (and extremists like Galvanise whose children aren't the ones who have to fight the good fight, how convenient!) who think the same about the Israelis. And then there are moderates on both sides, like me, who will talk to anyone, even hamas who I think are probably the most vile of the lot (certainly far worse than anything Israel could think up). But it's hamas we have to deal with and if they make a move towards peace, then I would talk with them.

[Kungfutea]

Correction Galvanise.

Do you condemn the sabra and shatila massacres that israel committed?

Israel didn't commit the sabra and shatila massacres. The massacres were carried out by the Lebanese Christian Phalangists.

Israel's failing was in preventing the massacre even though it was clear that that what was going to happen.

It was a crime - but one of omission not commission. Israel was indirectly responsible as it should have prevented them but it DID NOT carry out those massacres.

[Kungfutea]

but it is still wonderful to see that your little input just exposed you for the prejudiced racist that you are.

There you go Bessie. It wasn't long in coming. But it's Galvanise who is joining in the personal attacks now.

[Kungfutea]

Galvanise

About your lies.

You said:
Grafting palestinan skin onto israeli soldiers sounds delightful doesnt it - forget any sort of compass for morality

I asked you what kind of twisted mind came up with that kind of thing.

You said that it was in the Guardian article.
But it never said that, that's a lie.

Look at your quote below

She was quoted by the Associated Press as saying that while Palestinians were "by a long shot" not the only ones affected, she felt the interview must be made public, because "the symbolism, you know, of taking skin of the population considered to be the enemy, [is] something, just in terms of its symbolic weight, that has to be reconsidered."

Then you said:

Every israeli citizen is trained in the military. You take skin from your enemy and give it to your nation - a nation where every man and woman is routinely trained in military.

I'm sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever. Firstly, as I explained to defuse, many nations have national service. I'm not sure why that is even an issue - again unjustified criticism of Israel.

Now, nowhere in that article did anyone say anything about skin being grafted from Palestinians to Israeli soldiers.

And what on earth does 'taking skin from your enemy and giving it to the nation' mean? WTaF?

This is all the product of a twisted mind - yours or someone else's.

And, yes, you did actually lie. Just admit that either you made it up or you found it on one of your rabid anti Israel websites.

[Kungfutea]

Kungfu....do not accuse mondrian or myself as lying....so typical of you and your government to twist things. Oh yes...must remember....kungu, israeli government and IDF always tell the truth.

Of course I'll accuse you of lying when you tell barefaced lies!!! Both you and Mondrian. I'm lucky that you two clearly aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer so the evidence is undeniable. It's in front of you on this screen where you lie about what you said!

So typical of you Brits and your British government to twist things and lie (Iraq invasion anyone)!

I'm sure the Israeli govt doesn't always tell the truth. Just as I'm sure the US govt. doesn't always tell the truth. Just as I'm sure the British govt. doesn't always tell the truth.

The world of Galvanise must be so nice when all is good in the world apart from evil, nasty Israel.

And, I have absolutely told the truth on this thread. You and others have screamed 'lies, inaccuracies, etc etc' but when I've actually asked you to point out what is a lie, you can't! You just don't like what I say so you childishly call it a lie.

[Galvanise]

I stand corrected with regards to the shatila massacre. I should have clarified.

Kungfu, yes, i know that was quite harsh of me to say that, it was a response to a very prejudiced question that she changed to - along with the patronising comment she made. But i will retract that statement and correct it - it should read - it is still wonderful that your little input just exposed your comments for the prejudiced racism that they are. I will ask mn to omit the original line. Apologies for personal attack.

On what basis do you call me an extremist kungfu? Because i feel passionately that israel should stop all the things i listed in the 02:24 message? If that makes me an extremist, then so be it.

[Kungfutea]

you have also talked non-stop about me visiting anti-israeli websites. I have told you i havent. Careful where you are going with this. It stinks of......um...lets see.....racism perhaps

And perhaps that's on the basis of your sad attempt to lend credence to the blood libel Haiti conspiracy?

Actually you reminded me of a boyfriend of a friend of mine who also believed that Israel was responsible for the twin towers and for the killing of Dodi and Diana! He also spent a bit too long on the rabid anti-Israel websites. That's where the conspiracy theories are really peddled. Although you're right that the BNP and the ADL love nothing more than a good Jews ruling the world conspiracy.

As well as the fact that when you joined this thread you immediately stated that my feelings, thoughts and views are propaganda. I'm interested to know why you felt the need to delegitmise my views and why what I say is propaganda but what you say isn't. You still haven't enlightened me.

[Galvanise]

Bessie: that is a patronising comment you made about me to kungfu.
Your contribution to this thread has been nothing but one of an applauding audience - a cheerleader or even a yes-man.

You didnt initially ask me whether i condemn...you asked what my position was. And i answered that. You then changed your question to a highly offensive one.

Your condemn question to me is full of dirty insinuation. Frankly speaking, i am disgusted by your question. it stinks. Was it because you had formed prejudices in you head and thought that i would answer in a particular way? was my answer disappointingly non-controversial for you? Are you not understanding when i said that i feel for deaths - be it israeli or palestinian. Or have you been reading the Daily Mail for too long. Do your prejudices have you believe that i celebrate kiilings? Do your prejudices have you believe that I condone violence? Do your prejudices have you believe that i might even condone a bit of terrorism? .

Your 2 posts directly to me have come across extremely prejudiced and offensive - your remarks to the OP about other contributors and myself have been quite immature. It gives the reader following this thread a great insight into the kind of mentality that you have. You havent done yourself many favours on this thread so far.

Now....bessie, since you like to see condemnation....
Do you bessie condemn: the way israelis humiliate and degrade by throwing rubbish at palestinians and muslim arabs? (You decided to generalise that all palestinians celebrate at israeli children deaths - i await proof for all of these - in the mean time here is a sweeping generalisation from me so you realise how racist and prejudiced you sound making sweeping statements about all palestinians and muslims)

Do you condemn israeli state terrorism?
Do you condemn the use of british passports by israel - doing what it does best as the rogue state that its government has turned it into and causing a threat to the integrity of our british system - to assassinate a palestinian in a different country? Israel have a great track record on this one - they have done this before with new zealand and canadian passports.

Do you condemn the illegal settlements?
do you condemn the building of settlements that israel is continuiing?
Do you condemn the white phosphorous israel used in built up areas which was illegal even at the time?
Do you condemn that israel puts palestinian peope in jail without trial?
Do you condemn israel literally kidnaps the palestinian children who are being tried in military tribunals after being terrorised to produce fake confessions?
Do you condemn the breaking of UN resolutions by israel?
Do you condemn the sabra and shatila massacres that israel committed?
Do you condemn the deaths of the 3 tiny babies after israel launched another bloody war not so long ago - do you remember the images of 3 babies bring carried/ covered in white sheets to be buried?
Do you condemn the torture of innocent palestinian civillans by israel?
do you condemn the control of everything in palestine even fruit and veg and medical supplies - by israel?

Lets start small with these questions shall we bessie and look for rational thought from you rather than mere prejudices and cheerleading eh!

[Kungfutea]

The thing is, Galvanise, that a lot of things you listed I also think Israel should stop. I'd dispute whether it all happens like you say it does but some things do certainly happen sometimes and I've said throughout this thread that these things aren't OK.

Like I said, there's justified criticism and I'm absolutely fine with that. Israel is a democracy and much of that criticism comes from within Israel.

The reason I think you're an extremist, from what you've demonstrated on this thread, is that

a) you state that Israel is too vile for the Palestinians to make peace with. Which means you think that they should keep fighting until there is no Israel. That's extreme. Moderates believe you should talk to and make peace wiht your enemies. I think hamas is vile. I'd still talk to them and make peace with them.

b) you haven't demonstrated any capacity for understanding that the situation isn't Israel =bad, Palestinains = good. You may sympathise with the Palestinian cause but still demonstrate some understanding that the Israelis have valid fears and concerns and certainly demonstrate some awareness that far worse things happen elsewhere (eg getting angry because a convicted attempted murderer with terminal cancer dies of cancer when receiving treatment in one of the best hospitals in Israel)

c) you believe in (or at least support) outlandish conspiracy theories about Israel

d) from the start you didn't listen to me and just said what I have to say is propaganda, lies etc. I could have done that about the Palestinians but I didn't. When you made what I considered a valid point, I acknowledged as such.

[Kungfutea]

Although, regarding children, I hope you are equally vociferous in your condemnation of hamas using children as human shields!!!

[Kungfutea]

I remember this case of the 14 year old suicide bomber, begging the soldiers to help him take his suicide belt off, I was in Israel at the time :(

I think Israel should do a better job of protecting minors and we shouldn't bloody well be there - but this is not leafy surrey.

[Galvanise]

Kungfu, you are deluded if you think i mentioned the organ harvesting to lend credence to the haiti scandal. I was aware of neither before you enlightened me. I was actually highlighting an actual fact, but you are the one going on and on about about conspiracy theories. I never said that haiti actually happened - you are now doing your usual thing of accusing and derailing. Its getting tedious.

I am however, so much more aware of the devious and manipulative tactics used by your government. I am absolutely horrified by israel justifying terrorising palestinian children in the name of security. the only country in the world that routinely subjects children to military courts. very big and strong of them

Unfortunately i cannot continue with this thread as it is full of derailing and i cannot bear to look up any more acts of atrocities or humiliation that israel is committing against people that cannot match its military might. I am really sad to say that their atrocities will not stop any time soon. However, i still thank you op, for exposing the number of crimes israel has committed against humanity - not your intention, i am sure, but as they say.....truth does come out - eventually.

Op, you came on here to say that look at those palestinians - killed their own baby and blamed Israel. It is still just an allegation and not a fact. Even if it is proved correct,is that really something to be so pleased about?

There are so many israeli blaming palestinians stories too (lets never forget tom hurndall) that were equally untrue. The difference is: the rogue state of israel is so involved in cover-ups. I just remembered operation cyanide - another war mongering devious act by israel. The list is endless.

Wouldnt it be interesting to have israeli individuals up for war crimes if palestine did become a state? Do you see that happening? Do you see accountability for war crimes? After all, UN has stated that both sides committed war crimes - or do you feel that hamas deserve harsher punishment than israel for the same crime?

Bessie: israel is being very naughty and acting very badly - a bit like a bully. Thats not nice is it. Would you ask a bully what great things he/she does? Would that make him good or still a bully?

Lets ask which country has violated the most united nation resolutions - resulting in becoming a threat to peace? Is it iran, is it north korea, is anyone on the 'axis of evil?' Answers on a post card.

I am out.

[Kungfutea]

Here's what you said

There may be no proof over claims about haiti organ harvesting, but its not a million miles away from another thruth is it. organ harvesting without permission from israelis and also palestinians, is not completely new to israel is it. Grafting palestinan skin onto israeli soldiers sounds delightful doesnt it - forget any sort of compass for morality.

So what exactly did you mean when you said there may be no proof of Haiti organ harvesting but it's not a million miles away from the truth?

That sounds awfully like you're trying to suggest that there might be something in the blood libel Haiti organ conspiracy.

[Kungfutea]

And calling Israel a rogue state is exactly why you are an rabid anti-Israel fanatic.

[Kungfutea]

Actually, regarding the OP, I'm afraid my point was that it was stated as fact that it was Israel when, in fact, it was more than likely the Palestinians.

The same applies for Mohammed Al Dura

As I said earlier, either way it's still a tragedy.

[Kungfutea]

Bessie didn't say ALL palestinians. Of course not, there are many moderate palestinians who don't like Israeli dying either (you just don't hear them all that much).

I can show you many clips from Israeli TV showing Palestinians celebrating each time Israeli civilians die but you wouldn't believe them.

so here's Palestinians celebrating 9/11

If they celebrate Americans dying like that, imagine the unrestrained joy when it's Israelis.

[Kungfutea]

I've got to say that this made me laugh a bit

You are far too good to be seen as openly racist though.....especially since you have volunteered with a NGO.

So I haven't been openly racist (because I'm that good!) but yet you have decided I am racist. Because all Israelis must be racist! It's in our blood. We can't help it!!

[Kungfutea]

Some of the sad reality regarding Palestinians minors who are detained in Israel.

What Galvanise has failed to realise or even recognise is that there are often two sides to any story. While Israel may not do all it can to protect Palestinian minors, the Palestinian terror organizations seem to have no compunction in using them in terror attacks.

another 14 year old potential suicide attack

11 year old failed suicide attach

15 year old recruited as suicide bomber

15 year old tried to detonate 5 bombs

15 and 16 year olds with pipe bombs

And there are plenty of 16 and 17 year old suicide bombers such as (this is just a sample):

16-year-old Ayat al-Akhras in Jerusalem in March 2002; 17-year-old Issa Abedrabbu Ibrahim Badir in Rishon Lezion in May 2002; 16-year-old Sabih Abu al-Saoud in March 2003,17-year-old Islam Qteishat in Rosh Ha?ayin in August 2003, 17-year-old Safwat Abdel Rahman in Tel-Aviv in January 2002, 17-year-old Hamza Aref Samudi near Mejiddo junction in June 2002; 17-year-old Iyad al-Masri in January 2004, 17-year-old Khamis Gerwan near Ariel.

Then you wonder why Israel detains minors???

[Mondrian]

You are missing the point all together, as far as I am aware not a single person on this thread (at least since I started posting on it) has promoted or defended the actions of the Palestinian regime or their atrocities so it's not a case of Israel vs Palestine as you keep saying ... Fact is no one has said anything nice about Abbas, Fatah or Hamas or defended them in any way. However Israel has all the guns, the finances, the land, the financial & political backing ... They have all the power and therefore the onus is on them to take concrete steps towards peace ... not just empty words.

Respect for basic human rights and an adherence to UN resolutions would be a good start as would a reduction in no of settlements, restraint and proportionate response are actions associated with peace not a fatality ratio of 6:1 and bombing of schools and hospitals. those types of positive actions would send clear signals to the world that Israel is indeed leading the way to peace and certainly provide people like you with some ammunition in pro-peace discussions but are they interested .... No. Instead they engage in a PR war, put pressure on all who dare to speak against this barbarity by branding them anti-semitic and the sad fact is that I understand you and those like you, you have nothing to say, no ammunition to respond with so your only choice is to beat all who speak up on the head with your anti-semitic gun cause that's all you got to work with.

[Mondrian]

Ok let's talk about children and being brought up in a state of siege and the reality of it for kids who are brought up in a 1.5 million prison with diminishing access to education, overcrowding to the extent that schools have to operate a shift system on top of overcrowded classes with declining achievements and that was before the Gaza invasion & bombing which resulted in damage to infrastructure, displacement and malnourishment. What do you expect to be the output of such an educational system ... Great thinkers, scientists, doctors, teachers, peace activists?
imeu.net/news/article0017067.shtml

Why can't you see that Israel is directly responsible for shaping the minds and hearts of Palestinian children and the next generation of Palestinians ... Cycle of perpetual violence.

[Kungfutea]

Actually gazans are highly educated, more than neighbouring Egypt, for example. Israel isn't responsible for overcrowding in gazan classrooms! We all know the reason for that!

I've been to many countries with far worse education systems and far less education but they don't send 14 year olds to blow themselves up.

I don't think it's about the children's hearts and minds, it's about the adults who exploit and manipulate them - and send them off to become shahid.

[Kungfutea]

Still no explanation for your racist comments Mondrian?

Or evidence of YouTube conspiracy?

[Mondrian]

Today's children are tomorrows adults.