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Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

310 replies

Kungfutea · 13/03/2013 00:40

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

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Kungfutea · 29/03/2013 18:33

I feel the need to put some things into order rather than just responding to the goading which sometimes leads me to post in haste and defensively

I do believe that there is a lot of unfair Israel bashing in the press and a pre-occupation with Israel while there are so many places in the world where far worse happens (who even remembers Chechnya?). This isn't a justification, of course, but criticism and change will have to come from within Israel - and if there's one thing Israelis are used to, it's having the whole world against them. Delegtimising Israel's very existence, as I've seen done here, only makes Israelis think that their back is against the wall. It's why I felt the need to write my OP.
I don't agree completely with this article, but there are some valid points.
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4360933,00.html

On the other hand, Israel has a strong civil society. While Israel often does things I'm not proud of, especially regarding the palestinians, I am extremely proud that despite the long and ongoing conflict, there's still a free press with people like Gidon Levy and Amira Hass reporting from the OPT, there's organizations like B'Tzelem (a human rights organization), combatants for peace, taayush, Machsom watch (Israelis who go to the checkpoints to make sure that Palestinians are treated properly), that Palestinians are treated in Israel hospitals Derech Hachlama
There's a strong basis there to work towards peace on the Israeli side, and that's what need to be strengthened rather than childish cries that Israelis are 'apartheid lovers' and 'war mongers'

For me, the main issue above all is ending the occupation. Israelis are no different than anyone else. It's the occupation which is the cancer in our society and which brutalizes. Look at the US and British soldiers, how they behaved in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's being in that kind of situation which leads to the kind of behavior where it's considered OK to treat people in a different way to how you'd want to be treated. This article explains somewhat the point I'm making.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/mar/13/systemic-atrocity-afghanistan-occupation

And herein lies my frustration with the Palestinians who torpedoed the peace process back in the 90s and started the second intifada (read the memoirs of Bill Clinton and Dennis Ross). We had a peace process, a road map out of occupation. They needed to stick to it, work with it, we all did. It wasn't perfect, there were infractions on both sides but it was a way out of the mess, to a two state solution - but starting the second intifada was a tragedy for both us and them. Not just because they suffer from the occupation, but so does Israel. It's not just the terror I'm talking about but the occupation which eats us from within. I know that sounds dramatic and I've tried to avoid hyperbole but I really believe that.

I also know that Israelis want peace. I know that they want a two state solution.
Israelis want two state solution
Only the messianic religious extremists believe that Israel can keep control of the west bank. But Israelis are scared. They really are. They've seen what's happened in Gaza. They hear Hamas calling for their destruction and being supported by Iran. So while the onus is on the Israelis to make concessions and get past their fear, it is equally on the Palestinians to get past their anger (maybe stop giving out sweets and celebrating when Israeli children die?) and assure the Israelis that they won't seek their destruction. Although the Palestinians may be using the maxim 'My enemy's enemy is my friend', Iran is a false friend and has no interest in there being peace between the Palestinians and Israel.

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Kungfutea · 29/03/2013 18:43

Last post for now, promise!

I just want to copy and paste from a speech given by David Grossman. He's a famous Israeli author whose son, Udi, was killed in Lebanon.This is a speech he gave at a memorial for Yitzhak Rabin during the time that Ehud Olmert was PM.

He expresses the views of many many Israelis.

----------------
The annual memorial ceremony for Yitzhak Rabin is the moment when we pause for a while to remember Rabin the man, the leader. And we also take a look at ourselves, at Israeli society, its leadership, the national mood, the state of the peace process, at ourselves as individuals in the face of national events.

It is not easy to take a look at ourselves this year. There was a war, and Israel flexed its massive military muscle, but also exposed Israel's fragility. We discovered that our military might ultimately cannot be the only guarantee of our existence.

I am speaking here tonight as a person whose love for the land is overwhelming and complex, and yet it is unequivocal, and as one whose continuous covenant with the land has turned his personal calamity into a covenant of blood.

I am totally secular, and yet in my eyes the establishment and the very existence of the State of Israel is a miracle of sorts that happened to us as a nation - a political, national, human miracle.

I do not forget this for a single moment. Even when many things in the reality of our lives enrage and depress me, even when the miracle is broken down to routine and wretchedness, to corruption and cynicism, even when reality seems like nothing but a poor parody of this miracle, I always remember. And with these feelings, I address you tonight.

"Behold land, for we hath squandered," wrote the poet Saul Tchernikovsky in Tel Aviv in 1938. He lamented the burial of our young again and again in the soil of the Land of Israel. The death of young people is a horrible, ghastly waste.

But no less dreadful is the sense that for many years, the State of Israel has been squandering, not only the lives of its sons, but also its miracle; that grand and rare opportunity that history bestowed upon it, the opportunity to establish here a state that is efficient, democratic, which abides by Jewish and universal values; a state that would be a national home and haven, but not only a haven, also a place that would offer a new meaning to Jewish existence; a state that holds as an integral and essential part of its Jewish identity and its Jewish ethos, the observance of full equality and respect for its non-Jewish citizens.

And I ask you: How could it be that a people with such powers of creativity, renewal and vivacity as ours, a people that knew how to rise from the ashes time and again, finds itself today, despite its great military might, at such a state of laxity and inanity, a state where it is the victim once more, but this time its own victim, of its anxieties, its short-sightedness.

One of the most difficult outcomes of the recent war is the heightened realization that at this time there is no king in Israel, that our leadership is hollow. Our military and political leadership is hollow.

The fundamental characteristics of the current Israeli leadership are primarily anxiety and intimidation, of the charade of power, the wink of the dirty deal, of selling out our most prized possessions. In this sense they are not true leaders, certainly they are not the leaders of a people in such a complicated position that has lost the way it so desperately needs. Sometimes it seems that the sound box of their self-importance, of their memories of history, of their vision, of what they really care for, exist only in the miniscule space between two headlines of a newspaper or between two investigations by the attorney general.

Look at those who lead us. Not all of them, of course, but many among them. Behold their petrified, suspicious, sweaty conduct. The conduct of advocates and scoundrels. It is preposterous to expect to hear wisdom emerge from them, that some vision or even just an original, truly creative, bold and ingenuous idea would emanate from them.

When was the last time a prime minister formulated or took a step that could open up a new horizon for Israelis, for a better future? When did he initiate a social or cultural or ideological move, instead of merely reacting feverishly to moves forced upon him by others?

Mister Prime Minister, I am not saying these words out of feelings of rage or revenge. I have waited long enough to avoid responding on impulse. You will not be able to dismiss my words tonight by saying a grieving man cannot be judged. Certainly I am grieving, but I am more pained than angry. This country and what you and your friends are doing to it pains me.

Trust me, your success is important to me, because the future of all of us depends on our ability to act. Yitzhak Rabin took the road of peace with the Palestinians, not because he possessed great affection for them or their leaders.

Rabin decided to act, because he discerned very wisely that Israeli society would not be able to sustain itself endlessly in a state of an unresolved conflict. He realized long before many others that life in a climate of violence, occupation, terror, anxiety and hopelessness, extracts a price Israel cannot afford. This is all relevant today, even more so. We will soon talk about the partner that we do or do not have, but before that, let us take a look at ourselves.

We have been living in this struggle for more than 100 years. We, the citizens of this conflict, have been born into war and raised in it, and in a certain sense indoctrinated by it. Maybe this is why we sometimes think that this madness in which we live for over 100 years is the only real thing, the only life for us, and that we do not have the option or even the right to aspire for a different life.

The calamity that struck my family and myself with the falling of our son, Uri, does not grant me any additional rights in the public discourse, but I believe that the experience of facing death and the loss brings with it a sobriety and lucidity, at least regarding the distinction between the important and the unimportant, between the attainable and the unattainable.

Any reasonable person in Israel, and I will say in Palestine too, knows exactly the outline of a possible solution to the conflict between the two peoples. Any reasonable person here and over there knows deep in their heart the difference between dreams and the heart's desire, between what is possible and what is not possible by the conclusion of negotiations. Anyone who does not know, who refuses to acknowledge this, is already not a partner, be he Jew or Arab, is entrapped in his hermetic fanaticism, and is therefore not a partner.

Let us take a look at those who are meant to be our partners. The Palestinians have elected Hamas to lead them, Hamas who refuses to negotiate with us, refuses even to recognize us. What can be done in such a position?

Turn to the Palestinians, Mr. Olmert, address them over the heads of Hamas, appeal to their moderates, those who like you and I oppose Hamas and its ways, turn to the Palestinian people, speak to their deep grief and wounds, acknowledge their ongoing suffering.

Nothing would be taken away from you or Israel's standing in future negotiations. Our hearts will only open up to one another slightly, and this has a tremendous power, the power of a force majeur. The power of simple human compassion, particularly in this a state of deadlock and dread. Just once, look at them not through the sights of a gun, and not behind a closed roadblock. You will see there a people that is tortured no less than us.

Certainly, the Palestinians are also to blame for the impasse, certainly they played their role in the failure of the peace process. But take a look at them from a different perspective, not only at the radicals in their midst, not only at those who share interests with our own radicals. Take a look at the overwhelming majority of this miserable people, whose fate is entangled with our own, whether we like it or not.

Go to the Palestinians, Mr. Olmert, do not search all the time for reasons for not to talk to them. You backed down on the unilateral convergence, and that's a good thing, but do not leave a vacuum. It will be occupied instantly with violence, destruction. Talk to them, make them an offer their moderates can accept. They argue among themselves far more than we are shown in the media. Make them an offer that will force them to choose between accepting it or prefering to remain hostage to fanatical Islam.

Approach them with the bravest and most serious plan Israel can offer. With the offer than any reasonable Palestinian and Israeli knows is the boundary of their refusal and our concession. There is no time. Should you delay, in a short while we will look back with longing at the amateur Palestinian terror. We will hit our heads and yell at our failure to exercise all of our mental flexibility, all of the Israeli ingenuity to uproot our enemies from their self-entrapment. We have no choice and they have no choice. And a peace of no choice should be approached with the same determination and creativity as one approaches a war of no choice. And those who believe we do have a choice, or that time is on our side do not comprehend the deeply dangerous processes already in motion.

Maybe, Mr. Prime Minister, you need to be reminded, that if an Arab leader is sending a peace signal, be it the slightest and most hesitant, you must accept it, you must test immediately its sincerity and seriousness. You do not have the moral right not to respond. You owe it to those whom you would ask to sacrifice their lives should another war break out.

Certainly, not all depends on our actions. There are major powers active in our region and in the world. Some, like Iran, like radical Islam, seek our doom and despite that, so much depends on what we do, on what we become.

Disagreements today between right and left are not that significant. The vast majority of Israel's citizens understand this already, and know what the outline for the resolution of the conflict would look like. Most of us understand, therefore, that the land would be divided, that a Palestinian state would be established.

Why, then, do we keep exhausting ourselves with the internal bickering that has gone on for 40 years? Why does our political leadership continue to reflect the position of the radicals and not that held by the majority of the public? It is better to reach national consensus before circumstances or God forbid another war force us to reach it. If we do it, we would save ourselves years of decline and error, years when we will cry time and again: "Behold land, for we hath squandered."

From where I stand right now, I beseech, I call on all those who listen, the young who came back from the war, who know they are the ones to be called upon to pay the price of the next war, on citizens, Jew and Arab, people on the right and the left, the secular, the religious, stop for a moment, take a look into the abyss. Think of how close we are to losing all that we have created here. Ask yourselves if this is not the time to get a grip, to break free of this paralysis, to finally claim the lives we deserve to live.

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infamouspoo · 29/03/2013 18:52

I sometimes wonder if peace is possible. A friend stayed for 5 weeks in Nablus. She passed through the Jerusalem checkpoint several times as an English person with an English passport and was petrified at being shouted at by soldeirs with guns and dehumanised. She was spat at in the streets of Jerusalem, had rocks thrown at her and has pictures of the nets in Jerico and other cities to catch trash thrown by Israeli's onto Palestinians.
She went into Palestnian homes in Nablus and held the hands of women holding pictures of their dead children. One child was 12. Shot from half a mile away by a soldier in a watchtower. He was carrying a curtain pole. The mother blames herself for sending him to buy a curtain pole. From the home she stayed in in Nablus every hill top was covered in illegal settlements and Israeli watchtowers.
The segregated roads and buses.

This all breeds hatred and 'otherness'. As a jew I felt embaressed and sad and yes, defensive despite never having been there and with no intention really of going. I ended up babbling about the work done by Rabbi's for Human Rights and others but I dont have to live in the west bank and face this humilation daily.
Sad
You ever been to the West Bank KungFu?

Galvanise · 29/03/2013 19:03

You sit there accusing another poster of racism - i cannot see that poster having made any racist remarks. It is a low blow to falsely accuse someone making valid points of racism.

You accuse another poster of ranting. From what i can see, she also wrote of many many accurate facts - facts which you have dismissed as rantings. How dare you call the murder of tom hurndall just a one-time criminal shooting, when facts show that your government did everything in its power to cover it up and blame the palestinians. That criminal soldier that you are referring to - well he hasnt served his full sentence and is a free man now. Great justice there!

You have ignored the crux of the matter - israel has an appalling track record of violations of UN resolutions and assassinations of many many nationalities.

Your nation knows much about persecution and being persecuted. Yet it doesnt flinch at the disgusting treatment it metes out to the Palestinians - in fact it even down plays the state that they are forcing the palestinians to live in saying, 'it's not that bad!' - a view that you also hold and have expressed about the Palestinians in west bank.

it amazes me, how quickly the oppressed became the oppressors!

Galvanise · 29/03/2013 19:06

My above post was for kuntfu

Galvanise · 29/03/2013 19:07

Kungfu rather!

Galvanise · 29/03/2013 19:10

Infamous...palestinians carry nets so they can catch rubbish that israelis throw on the from above?? Sad

You as a jewish woman have nothing to feel embarassed about - for me personally, i do not hold jewish people accountable - i hold israel accountable. I know that many many jews do not believe in israel, and also know that some israelis do not agree with israel.

infamouspoo · 29/03/2013 19:18

the nets are strung in the streets above the shops and walkways to catch the solid stuff. They dont catch the liquid obviously and my friend got soaked with what she hoped was washing up water.
I'm leaving the thread as its now going nowhere and its shabbat so I shouldnt be online anyhow. Have a peaceful weekend.

Kungfutea · 29/03/2013 20:13

Galvanise
I'm not justifying what happens in the OPT. But the Gaza Strip is not the Warsaw Ghetto and the West Bank is not a prison camp. That's hyperbole and propaganda.

I said that the killing of Tom Hurdnall was criminal, as did Israel. Israel did its own investigation and the soldier responsible was found guilyu of manslaughter and given 8 years.Given that here in the UK a man who murdered his wife was given 6 years, I don't think you should really be that shocked that he is now free, 9 years later. I didn't say it was a one off. Unfortunately, I do think that Palestinians have been illegally killed by Israeli soldiers and their killers haven't been bought to justice. That's not right, of course not. As I said, it's the occupation which brutalizes. How many British soldiers have been put on trial and jailed for the torture and murder of Iraqis at the Danny Boy checkpoint? Just wondering.

There was plenty of ranting. In fact endless ranting and cries of 'liar, liar pants on fire'. And there were racist assumptions made. Of course you don't see it, you don't want to. Do you think Lord Ahmed is anti semitic (or maybe he has a point?). There's no doubt that the UK anti-Israel lobby is more than influenced by the anti-semtisim of the UK muslim community, in particular the Pakistani one.

Still haven't heard what was a lie and what was an inaccuracy. Ah well,

Of course many Israelis don't agree with Israeli policy! JUst like many British people don't agree with the invasion of Iraq. Kind of goes without saying. And as I showed above, there are many many Israeli civil society groups which are actively doing something about it. As I did when I lived in Israel. If you actually read what I'd posted, you could learn somethng about Israeli society.

Infamouspoo
Yes, I've been to the West Bank. Many many times.

I think your friend may have been in Hebron since there are no other mixed cities in the OPT. I know what goes on in Hebron is insane! It's quite ironic since, as I said above, my grandparents were expelled from Hebron in 1929 by Arab riots - yet I can't think of a place I'd rather less live in.

There are no jewish settlers living in Nablus or Jericho so it's definitely not there.

Of course as a Jewish person you are no more responsible for what happens in Israel than Muslims are for the atrocities committed by extremists in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Sudan, Egypt, Libya, Western Sahara, Alegeria, Mali etc etc

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Kungfutea · 29/03/2013 20:15

it amazes me, how quickly the oppressed became the oppressors!

It always make me wonder with the Palestinians why, after being so oppressed by Israelis, they voted in an oppressive regime which oppresses their own people - christians, women, gays, political opponents.

I guess people are people, whether they've been oppressed or not.

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Kungfutea · 29/03/2013 20:22

Here you go Galvanise. This is the post with the racist assumptions:

Mondrian
To prove my point out of the previous 94 postings on this thread you have managed to engage very few now Jewish posters (3-4) who have stayed the course, and even then they are posting out of frustration (like me) and not interest ... Doesn't that tell you anything?

I just wondered how she had decided who was Jewish and who was not. On the basis of their political views? Only one poster stated their religion. Of course it was a racist assumption. But as I said, I think she probably did it more to be mean to me than to be racist. Either way, an apology would be appreciated.

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Kungfutea · 29/03/2013 20:54

infamous
I also wonder why your friend was spat at on the streets of Jerusalem. I lived there for many years and had friends who came visit, English people with English passports, and they were never spat at. I've never been spat at. As far as I know, no-one is routinely spat at in Jerusalem other than sometimes the ultra-orthodox Jews spit at immodestly dressed women in their neighborhoods (yuk!) but that's a whole different kettle of fish (in fact, the only time my car was hit by stones was when I drove through Bar-Ilan St on Shabbat!)

I sometimes wonder if peace is possible.
Look at the websites of taayush, combatants for peace etc
Watch the film 'my so called enemy'
Read the book written by Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish 'I Shall Not Hate'

I also lose hope sometimes but things like those above give me hope. We have to find a way out of this - and for me that means finding a way around the despicable Hamas govt in Gaza and working with civil society.

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Mondrian · 30/03/2013 07:36

For me there is no difference between the brutality of Israeli regime and that of the Syrian, Iranian, Bahraini etc. They all feed of each other and use the other to justify their actions ... Ahmadinejad needs Netinyaho to exist and vice versa. The big difference is that Israel is supposedly a democratic society and therefore one has to assume that the opinions and actions of the majority can influence the regime. This is in stark contrast to the rest of the middle east where there is a very visible and continued opposition by the majority against the minority in power as is the case in Syria and Iran. Its also interesting to see Israeli regime persecute against journalists such as Hass the same way the Iranian regime does. One regime has nuclear bomb capability and the other is trying to get one. To be honest imo there is very little differece between the two states in terms of righteousness!

Of course as you mentioned there are many Jews and Israelis who actively oppose the brutal tactics of the Israeli regime but they don't go around calling critics of the regime racist & anti-semitic or in the habit of fisking the opposition. So please, if you want to jump from the right of the Israeli political spectrum to the left then you will need to address your political & humanitarian lingo and stop sounding like Mark Regev.

Galvanise · 30/03/2013 21:55

Kungfu, it is ironic that you complain of racism on this thread, but explain away the apartheid wall in israel as somehow not being racist Hmm

Israel's most recent racist move as been to set up a palestinian only bus. Of course they have called it 'better service provision', aka racism to the western world.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/04/israel-palestinians-only-bus

The report highlights that such segregation is a common problem in israel. No surprises there! And israel likes to position itself as a leading beacon from the civilised western world!

Kungfutea · 31/03/2013 02:29

Yes, I'd agree that the situation in the WB vis a vis the settlers/palestinians isn't ok. I think you'll find I've consistently said that through out. I'm bothered by unfair and disproortionate criticism of Israel, not fair and justifiable criticism.

But doesn't excuse mondrian's racism though, does it?

Bit like if i were racist towards British Pakistani Muslims and then used lord ahmed's racism to justify it. Or being racist towards white british people and using the stephen lawrence murder to justify it. Two wrongs wouldn't make a right. Quite shocking that you think it's ok for a poster to make racist comments because racism exists in Israel (as in many other countries unfortunately).

Calling the wall separating Israel from the west bank an apartheid wall is propaganda, quite clearly. As I have said, appropriating Palestinian lands was wrong, it should have been built on Israeli land, but the wall itself not apartheid. Bit like saying any border is racist since one nationality can pass through easily and another can't.

Your absolute and blind hatred for Israel is quite scary and palpable. Just curious why the rage towards Israel and not to any of these, arguably far far worse abuses of human rights. Not saying that because there are far worse abuses that's it's ok in Israel, of course not, but I do wonder what drives the obsession with Israel. Do you think the Palestinians should accept a 2 state solution or should they keep pushing for the whole thing like Hamas and Iran want? Like Arafat wanted. Do you realise that if Arafat wouldn't have started the second intifada, we wouldn't be in the pickle we are now? Before the Palestinians started blowing themselves up in cafes, restaurants, buses, nightclubs, they could move almost freely in Israel proper.

Just so you know, when I worked in isrsel, in the public sector, my boss was a Muslim Palestinian Israeli. When I studied at the university, one of my lecturers was a Muslim Palestinian Israeli. When my daughter was born, the obstetrician who took care of me was a Muslim Palestinian israeli. In fact the head of the govt run hopsital for the western galilee in nahariya is also a muslim palestinian isrseli. Israel proper is not an apartheid state.

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Mondrian · 31/03/2013 06:51

Hmmm ... never heard of Israel proper! But it does sound like a wonderful place, I can see why it is necessary to build huge prisons like Gaza & West Bank to keep those millions of improper palestinians out.

Kungfutea · 31/03/2013 12:46

You certainly do have a lot to learn about the middle east.

Let me explain.

The west bank is not part of israel. It was never annexed to israel. This is why they are referred to as the occupied Palestinian territories.

When I said israel proper I was referring to israel within the 1948 borders where full Israeli civil law applies and all Palestinians within those borders (20% of Israeli society) are entitled to Israeli citizenship. Anyone with any understanding of the middle east would understand that. I think you have a lot of learning to do (btw, read your link on Ben Gurion and not a sausage on your sneering claim that he's a us backed Jew).

Talking of racism, no apology yet? You still haven't explained how you determined the religion of each and every poster and decided who was Jewish and who wasn't. Still haven't explained how the zionists control the world media. Even lord Ahmed apologized for his racist rant so you'd be in good company.

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Kungfutea · 31/03/2013 12:50

And, yes, israel is a wonderful place with wonderful people. I miss it a lot

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Mondrian · 31/03/2013 13:36

Please quote actual sentence where I came across as racist.

Please quote actual sentence where I said zionist control world media.

I put the link to Ben Gurion for anyone interested in the topic. I am sure they dont need either of us to make the assumption for them.

BTW I love it when you just ignore the main political, social, historic points and try to side track the conversation into a cheap he said/she said discussion.

Kungfutea · 31/03/2013 14:32

I feel like I'm in some mumsnet version of groundhog day.

Here we go, yet again.

OK, first. ZIonist control of youtube (which admittedly might not be anti-semitic but rather extreme paranoia) but would be nice to see some evidence of this outlandish claim. BTW, let's not froget that in actual fact, it's more than likely that Muhammad al-Durrah was killed by Plaestininan bullets.

I quote from Mondrian Tue 26-Mar-13 06:21:18
see if you can find the clip of the cold blooded shooting of the 12 year old Muhammad al-Durrah on YouTube. You won't, it's been deleted, disappeared ... Most of us remember and are still haunted by the images we saw on news clips all over the world in September 2000 when unarmed 12 yr old Muhammad was shot dead while being shielded by his unarmed father behind a barrel. This clip has now been erased from YouTube and instead replaced by "manufactured views" distorting all the facts using sophisticated methods

Second, third sneeringly referring to first prime minister of Israel as a 'Us-backed Jew'
I quote from Mondrian Tue 26-Mar-13 20:38:57
I am so glad that your only beef with my posting was that Gurion was not a US backed Jew.

Finally, and the worst one in my opinon - or at least the most explicit one.
Also quoting from Mondrian Tue 26-Mar-13 06:21:18
To prove my point out of the previous 94 postings on this thread you have managed to engage very few now Jewish posters (3-4) who have stayed the course, and even then they are posting out of frustration (like me) and not interest ... Doesn't that tell you anything?

Yes, it's told me that you've made racist assumptions about the religion of every poster. One ONE poster (infamous) stated her religion. How do you know, for example, the religion of patsy. zippey, donnie, annie? On what basis did you make assumptions about how who is Jewish and who is not?

I've actually addressed the points made by each and every poster, even the ranters. However, I can't just let this hypocrisy go, especially given how much faith you have in your moral compass Hmm

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Kungfutea · 31/03/2013 15:07

And just to further address your earlier post, depsite your racism.

For me there is no difference between the brutality of Israeli regime and that of the Syrian, Iranian, Bahraini etc. They all feed of each other and use the other to justify their actions ...
There's a question of degree. Israel doesn't use Syria or Iran or Bahrain to justify what it does. I'd say it uses the fear generated by Palestinian terrorism to do so. If Palestinians didn't send their children to blow us up or fire rockets from the Gaza strip where nary a settlement remains, Israel would be harder placed to justify what it does.

Ahmadinejad needs Netinyaho to exist and vice versa.
No, he doesn't. And Netanyahu doesn't need Iran. Israeli society is surprisingly united against the Iranian threat. We've done nothing to Iran and its meddling in the region is clearly malevolent. Althgouh actually we can thnank the British and Americans for Iran's rise in power. Saddam would NEVER have allowed Iran to have so much influence.

The big difference is that Israel is supposedly a democratic society and therefore one has to assume that the opinions and actions of the majority can influence the regime. This is in stark contrast to the rest of the middle east where there is a very visible and continued opposition by the majority against the minority in power as is the case in Syria and Iran.

The UK is a democracy yet atrocities like the Danny Boy checkpoint murders and tortures in Iraq have gone unpunished. Has anyone been arrested or charged for the murder in Iraq of 8 year old Hanan Saleh Matrud? Or the systematic torture of prisoners in Basra? Or British atrocities in Helmland province.

The US is a democracy yet there were crazy atrocities in Abu Ghraib and Haditha in Iraq, the Azizabad airstrike in Afghanistan. I don't think anything like Haditha has happened in the West Bank.

The point is that democractic regimes can do brutal things when they find themselves in situations where they occupy another people and the insurgents are part of the civillian population. Even more so in Israel where there is an Israeli civillian population living in the occupied territory (admittedly due to the stupidity of Israeli policy). If such things happen in Iraq and Afghanistan, so far removed from Britain and the US, and with not even a clear reason for being there, it's no surprise that there will be such things in the West Bank. Israelis are no different to anyone else. In fact, if Israel weren't a democracy with a strong civil society, I think we'd see an even worse situation that we do now.

Surely, if Britain and the US are democracies, the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and the subsequent brutality of the occupation should never have happened? Why did you not vote out the regime that let to the Iraqi invasion and such brutality? Iraq was invaded in 2003, Afghanistan in 2001. Blair was reelected in 2005. Explanation please.

Its also interesting to see Israeli regime persecute against journalists such as Hass the same way the Iranian regime does.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you talking about the Israeli journalist Amira Hass? She is free, alive and kicking, and reporting. Do you have any idea what Iran does to journalists? Again, you know little of what you are talking about.

One regime has nuclear bomb capability and the other is trying to get one. To be honest imo there is very little differece between the two states in terms of righteousness!
THere's a huge difference between Iran and Israel. If you can't see it then I think your perception of reality is highly flawed. Glad that the rest of the world can though!!! No is worried about Israeli nuclear capability, everyone is extremely worried about Iranian nuclear capability, why do you think that is?

Of course as you mentioned there are many Jews and Israelis who actively oppose the brutal tactics of the Israeli regime but they don't go around calling critics of the regime racist & anti-semitic or in the habit of fisking the opposition.
No, neither do I...unless they are racist or anti-semitic. Note that other posters have made very anti-Israel statements, including denying Israel's right to exist but YOU are the only one who I said made racist/anti-semitic comments. Why do you think that may be?

So please, if you want to jump from the right of the Israeli political spectrum to the left then you will need to address your political & humanitarian lingo and stop sounding like Mark Regev.
I've been consistent in what I've said throughout this post. I appreciate that at first you wished to discredit what I said by saying that I'm a 'social media acitivist' (whihc I found very funny) and now you're saying that I'm jumping from right to left (even though clearly you don't have a clue about the Israeli political spectrum or anything else in the middle east given all the inaccuracies in what you post). If I've contradicted myself at any point or changed my opinion on anything, please let me know. I don't think I have and if there are any inconsistencies in my thinking, then I'd like to know.

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Galvanise · 31/03/2013 22:41

I still dont see what you are asking for an apology for. You talk of disproportionate criticism. Israel strikes innocents disproportionately. Bombs. They pay with their lives.

Anyone who criticises israeli actions gets their point ignored and derailed as anti this anti that, racist, blah blah blah. Israel carries out racist racist actions and somehow, there is always a justification. It claims it is declaring war on terror, from what i can see, it has done much to commit wars of terror - on people who have stones for weapons.

Remember cherie blair's comments in 2002???
All she said was she she can understand the despair, she did not condone or condemn anything....and israel starts looking or an apology and gets it. Yet it makes no apology for murder, for child massacres, for creating hopelessness.

Israeli government is arrogant in seeking apology after apology - over things that were never said. You are doing exactly the same - you are asking for an apology fom a poster over something that was a non-issue. Just as your government did of cherie blair. People are wisening up to the bully tactics and the cries of racism from a nation currently starting up an apartheid state.

I have very strong feelings about israel because it breaks UN resolutions and still thinks that it is a progressive western country fighting a war on terror. Hmm

You train all your nation for war, then terrorise people who have very little. It doesnt make you big and strong. It makes you a bully.

I am bored listening to You go on gleefully about this guy ben gurion being US guy or whatever, demading apology over non-existent racism, snorting over your tea when british youth die. It doesnt make you sound very humanitarian despite your volunteering in NGO. You ignore the atrocities committed by your state, you try to ignore the plight of palestinians claiming its bad but not that bad and then try to talk political solutions on here.

This whole thread makes you sound arrogant and non-humanitarian. Not great that israel likes wars and showing disproportionate force, kill, kill and kill, make people and children suffer suffer and suffer and then you come on mumsnet trying to sulk to majority of mothers that look, israel got blamed disproportinately for this story.

What did you think you were going to achieve - win hearts and minds???

Kungfutea · 31/03/2013 23:59

And your point is? Nothing I haven't addressed yet and i notice you didn't answer any of my questions, just more ranting about how awful israel is. Yes, israel is disproportionately criticised.

I'm sorry if you don't find racist comments disturbing.

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Kungfutea · 01/04/2013 00:15

Oh, and you haven't yet enlightened me why, in your opinion, my views and feelings are propaganda but yours, which are far more emotive and full of hyperbole, aren't?

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Bessie123 · 01/04/2013 01:30

Wow, this thread is something else.

kungfutea I think you are amazing. You have persisted with a rational, clear, balanced argument despite crazy, biased, incoherent ranting from people who will not even think about what you are saying. You are very patient but I think you might be wasting your time (although if it helps, you have educated me Grin).

Btw though, I have been spat at by an Israeli man in Israel, when I asked him to stop revving his motorbike next to me while I was on a pay phone (obviously, this anecdote will make it clear to some that I am a rabid Jew with a virulent hatred of Palestinians)