Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

[Kungfutea]

Well, Nailak, that's exactly it, the crux of the problem.

Israel is not going anywhere. Calling it a crusader state or whatever it might be won't make it go away. It's a thriving, successful, cosmopolitan country. The Palestinian problem is indeed a problem but the Palestinians have so much more to gain from resolving it than the Israelis do.

At some point, the Palestinians (and many do - Hanan Ashrawi, Saeb Erkat, Sari Nusseibeh) will have to appreciate this fact. 60 plus years of denying reality has not got them very far.

BTW, my grandparents weren't zionists. My family had been in Palestine since way before the Zionist movement began. They were still expelled from Hebron by Arab massacres and riots.

[nailak]

ok,

you talked about your friends, but what about you? were you in idf?

does that make you sephardim or mizrachim? Your grandparents weren't zionists, so did they support Israel?

and do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? the Palestinians had been in areas for just as long as your gps, 700 000 out of 800 000 palestinians were displaced between 1947 and 1949.

It is not right that anyone had to flee their lands.

what happened to Gush Emunim?


what have they got to gain?

how do you take two people with different historical narratives and sense of collective identity, which are conflicting and opposing and make them in to one state?

[Kungfutea]

I answered that above. Yes, I'm an Israeli citizen and yes, I served in the IDF. Why do you ask?

My family was part of the old yishuv. But they later supported Israel, for sure. My oldest aunts and uncles fought in the Haganah.

I do accept that the creation of the State of Israel was a tragedy for Palestinians. But I think that the tragedy was mainly one of their own making. It didn't have to be like that - but as you said, they had no intention of making peace with Zionists - they wanted it all, no compromise, they wanted the Jews in the sea. You can't shoot your parents and then complain that you are an orphan.

But you have to move on. Plenty of people the world over have had to flee their homes. It's not right but it happens. Look at the population transfers in Greece/Turkey. Look at the movement of ethnic Germans after the war. As I said, my grandparents were forced to flee but they moved on with their lives. They moved and settled elsewhere. I certainly don't have any desire to live in Hebron and neither did they.

Why haven't the Palestinians moved on? Why do the Lebanese STILL refuse to allow them to work, access to healthcare? Treat them like absolute shit, they really do. And the Syrians? Not much better, certainly not now. Egpytians? Nope, treated them like crap as well. The only ones who gave them citizenship and absorbed them were Jordan and Israel.

[nailak]

I am taking this opportunity to try and have and have a reasonable discussion. I am interested in your experiences, al although I have been bombarded with Palestinian experiences, I have never had the opportunity to talk to an Israeli about their lives etc before.

Do you think Israel would ever be prepared to absorb the west bank and Gaza and grant them citizenship? Do you not think that this would be a threat to Zionism as if they do so, within a few years the Palestinian population would outnumber the Jewish population in what is supposed to be a Jewish homeland. This would obviously have an effect on the politics, and elected government and so on. They aren't guaranteed to elect a government which would prioritize Jewish interests?

How easy is it for Palestinians to get citizenship?

How easy is it for Palestinians to move on when they still don't have land?

There are 2.5 million people in the west bank and 1.5 million people in Gaza.

The total land area is 6165km2

the size of Israel is 20770km2 with 7million population.

I want to ask something. The territorial army here once they are trained can be called in to service. Are people who have completed military service like that? If needed can you be conscripted again? anytime?

[Kungfutea]

More than happy to answer nalaik. I think those questions deserve a thoughtful answer and I won't have time to answer properly until later this evening but I will do so.

[Kungfutea]

Shit, i typed a whole long response and i lost it!! So sorry nalaik, it'll have to be tomorrow.

[nailak]

ok

[drjohnsonscat]

but the Palestinians have so much more to gain from resolving it than the Israelis do this may be true but I think Israel is the only entity capable of resolving this. Not necessarily because they have done wrongs that they must right (although that's true of course - but true of both sides) but because the power does actually lie in their hands. At the risk of setting another rage going, N Irish terrorism has been in abeyance, more or less, since the more powerful entity in that conflict (the UK) decided to take some wounds on the chin, release some terrorists from prison, allow some other terrorists to enter into the governance structures of the region. And also basically spend huge amounts of money (UK and EU money) on the region rather than letting it slowly rot.

Sadly I don't think that's going to happen because the anger is too entrenched. I do actually take my hat off to successive UK and Irish politicans who were brave enough to do something very unpopular, talk to the enemy and make huge concessions.

[Kungfutea]

Hi Nailak

Hopefully second time lucky!


Do you think Israel would ever be prepared to absorb the west bank and Gaza and grant them citizenship? Do you not think that this would be a threat to Zionism as if they do so, within a few years the Palestinian population would outnumber the Jewish population in what is supposed to be a Jewish homeland. This would obviously have an effect on the politics, and elected government and so on. They aren't guaranteed to elect a government which would prioritize Jewish interests?

There is a very small minority in Israel who propose absorption of the WB and Gaza and basically a one state solution. These tend to be the Arab Israeli political parties and the far left. There's also a very small minority on the far right which support this idea.

As you point out, given demographics, it would be impossible for Israel to continue to be both a Jewish state and a democratic one if this were to happen which would be unacceptable to the vast majority of Jewish Israelis as there is only one Jewish country in the world. Personally, my ideal solution (which certainly is not representative of mainstream Israeli opinion) would for Israel to move into a post zionist stage and for there to be one secular, liberal and democratic state. Unfortunately, when I look at Palestinian society today, it's really not one I would want to be a part of due to the lack of religious, social and political tolerance and democratic values . Not under the PA and most certainly not under Hamas. So I think the two state solution is the only viable option.

How easy is it for Palestinians to get citizenship?

Well, it's practically impossible in Lebanon (apart from a few Christian Palestinians). In fact, Lebanon forbids the Palestinian refugees who have lived there for 65 years (including those born there) from working in any but the most menial of occupations, forbids them from buying land, forbids them from living where they want. Syria isn't much better, neither is Egypt. Jordan has granted citizenship to many refugees although has now started rescinding it from Palestinians originally from WB who moved post 1967. Israel granted full citizenship to all the Palestinians within its borders in 1948 ie the Israeli Palestinians. Many other Palestinians have since gained citizenship through family reunification. But it is indeed true that there are many Palestinians without citizenship. Hopefully the eventual creation of a Palestinian state will resolve this issue for them.

How easy is it for Palestinians to move on when they still don't have land?There are 2.5 million people in the west bank and 1.5 million people in Gaza. The total land area is 6165km2 the size of Israel is 20770km2 with 7million population.

And Jordan has 89,342 km² with 6 million population so if the Palestinians lack land maybe they can ask for some from Jordan which, after all, was part of mandatory Palestine until 1921 when the British gave it as a gift (!) to the Hashemites. BTW, half of Israel is desert and sparsely populated so when you look at where Israelis live, it's just as crowded as the WB.

I also think that if land per capita is an issue for the Palestinians, especially in Gaza, then why has their fertility rate been (and continues to be) so extremely high? Maybe if you live in the one of the most populous areas on earth, you might think about having a few less children? It's worked for China and Bangladesh. You can't have one of the highest population growth rates in the world and then use that as a reason why you are entitled to more land!

In any case, it's not the amount of land which is the issue. It's prosperity, building a democratic state, getting the institutions in place. Singapore, Hong Kong, Bahrain, Malta - they all have higher population density than the OPTs and they're doing pretty well. Clearly the Palestinians do need a coherent and contiguous amount of land which should encompass the whole of the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as their capital, minus the settlements, of course, unless agreed land transfers can take place. Israel can't and shouldn't start trying to create little self-rule cantons of Palestinians populations around Jewish settlements in the WB (which I suspect may be the goal of some) But I don't think the Palestinians can make demands on the established territory of the State of Israel, the whole world (minus perhaps Iran) recognizes the territory of the 1948 borders as the integral and legitimate territory of the State of Israel.


I want to ask something. The territorial army here once they are trained can be called in to service. Are people who have completed military service like that? If needed can you be conscripted again? anytime?

Yes, nearly everyone who finishes their military service is then in the reserves. When I did my service many years ago, there was a lot less sexual equality than there is now and women usually only went into the reserves for a short amount of time. I only served in the reserves for a couple of years post discharge from compulsory service, was never called up for any reserve duty, and then was discharged from the reserves so I wouldn't be called up at all now. I think women do more time in the reserves nowadays (which was one of the reasons why some of the occupations which required long training were closed to women when I was in the army - because they hardly did any reserve duty so it wasn't worth it). Men usually do about 3 weeks to a month of reserve duty (active service and training) from when they leave compulsory service (3 years for men) until 40+. My husband did reserve duty like this for many years until he was injured in a training accident.

[Kungfutea]

drjohnsonscat

I couldn't disagree more with the statement that Israel is the only entity capable of resolving the conflict.

It was the Palestinians who started the second intifada when we were already on the way to peace. It was Yasser Arafat who torpedoed the Camp David accords (independently corroborated).

I do agree that Israel is the 'winner' and the one with more power in this conflict and therefore has different obligations and responsibilities but if the Palestinians aren't ready for peace, what can you do? As Nalaik said, she doesn't think they'll ever be ready to make peace with Israel's existence. I hope that's not true but certainly seems to be reflective of thinking in large segments of Palestinian society.

Hamas doesn't want compromise. Hamas doesn't want a two state solution. Hamas wants an Islamic state in the whole land of Palestine (raising the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine) and to throw the 'crusader Jews' out. The Hamas manifesto specifically calls for the destruction of Israel.

I think your analogy with Ireland doesn't hold, there are very few parallels. I don't think the IRA ever called for the destruction of the UK or refused to recognize its right to exist. Israel has also taken a lot 'on the chin' already. Israel completely withdrew its settlements from Gaza and has had missiles in return. Israel recognized the PLO as the legitimate representatives of the Palestinians and sat down to talks with them despite its terrorist past. And indeed, to be fair, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist - a big step for them - but it doesn't seem to be what the rest of the Palestinian people want.

Btw, TONS and TONS of money has been spent in the Palestinians territories. The Saudis and the gulf states, UNRWA, the EU, the US, DFID have poured money into Palestine. Much of it sits in the private bank accounts of Mahmoud Abbas and his two sons (plus all that previously siphoned off by Arafat and his cronies).

[nailak]

I think that the population rate may have something to do with gaza having lack of even essential emergency supplies, and relying on aid for medication, as well as the constant destruction of hospitals. In this scenario I think a family planning service may not be the medical priority. Also it isbasic demographics that in places where people are afraid for the safety of their children, and there is less access to health care, higher mortality rate etc that people, that families have more children, only when the mortality rate stabilises does the bir rate drop. It is often said everyone in Gaza has at least one family member who has died as result of this conflict, can the same be said of Israelis?


Where did you serve your military service? What was your role? Can you tell us about your experiences?

If men under the age of fourth who served are in the reserves, is it nit fair to assume that any man under the age of fourth who is obviously not a religious student is not a actually a civillian?

[Kungfutea]

Neither access to family planning nor infant and child mortality (adult mortality has not been shown to influence fertility other than to depress it) explain the high birth rate in Gaza which, historically, has been much higher. There is no evidence that there is much unmet demand for family planning, wanted fertility remains very high. And, despite what you may think, the conflict has had little impact on mortality rates, certainly not infant and child mortality. Infant mortality in Gaza is about 17 deaths per 1000 births (about the same as Jordan, lower than Egypt). Bangladesh, with an infant mortality rate about three times as high - of nearly 50 deaths per 1000 births - has a total fertility rate of 2.4. The fertility is also surprisingly high given the high level of female education.

I think the answer lies in Yasser Arafat's boast 'The womb of the Palestinian woman is my strongest weapon'. Let's face, the Palestinians have tried to 'outbreed' the Israelis and they've succeeded! It just hasn't done them much good.

www.nytimes.com/2000/02/24/world/cramped-gaza-multiplies-at-unrivaled-rate.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

I have family members who have died in the conflict. I had an uncle who was killed as a child by a Palestinian attack (in the 1930s) and my father's cousin was killed in one of the wars (1967). More recently, I have a very good friend who was killed in a Palestinian terror attack in 2004. I also have two colleagues from where I used to work who each had a teenage child killed in two separate terror attacks in Jerusalem. I'd imagine many Israelis have similar experiences although there's no denying that the Palestinians have suffered more.

No, you cannot assume that civilians in Israel are not civilians because there is a reserve army. This paves the way to the rather disgusting assertion of Palestinian terror groups in the 60s and 70s that every (Jewish) Israeli is either a soldier or (if a child) a soldier to be - and therefore fair game for terrorists. I hope that's not where you're leading! Anyway, you have no idea who is in the reserves and who isn't. Israeli Arabs don't do army service, people who move to Israel later in life might not do army service, someone might have been discharged due to disability or ill-health (my brother in law for example has a disability, he volunteered to do his military service for 3 years nonetheless but was discharged from the reserves). So unless you're checking each individual man to see if he is a reservist, you have no way of knowing.

My experience in the IDF was really rather dull and not very interesting but I'm still not sure if I'm allowed to put details on a public website!

[drjohnsonscat]

No of course it's not a direct parallel but the idea that the Israeli hurts are very special and particular and nobody else anywhere in the world has any idea what it's like is part of the problem. Conflicts around the world are actually remarkably similar. The idea that Palestinians are the worst people in the world to have as an enemy so no one else can understand Israel's anguish and there's absolutely no way you can do anything more until they stop being who they are is just wrong. They are not superhuman enemies. There is nothing special about them that makes the Israeli situation so much worse than any other set of people in a horrible entrenched conflict with another.

And you've missed the point re money. While Palestinians live in poverty, there's room for all sorts of horrible money to find its way there. Again this is common to all such situations. It happened in N Ireland - organised crime was a huge problem and Noraid was not my favourite organisation. Our "enemy" at the time was being legitimately financed by the world's biggest power.

Once a way is found for Palestinians to live in prosperity and order, this will abate. This is why it's Israel's to resolve. You say the Palestinians are not ready for peace but the truth is peace will involve Israel making huge compromises that I don't think it is ready to make. You can't make peace if you keep saying "we tried this and we tried that and they threw it back in our face". They will throw it back in your face and turn to more and more extreme solutions unless they have what they think is a workable solution and we all agree that they don't have a workable solution yet. You have to money bomb the place and absorb all the hurts until the majority of the people there see that their lives are better in peace than in fighting for a cause.

And re the IRA no there are no direct parallels but you are very determined that it's different. You are making my point for me.

[nailak]

you know my dad was arrested for terrorism and imprisoned in Angola and tortured for carrying messages for the ANC,

He was basically kicked out of his country for being a terrorist.

Now no one would consider him a terrorist. He was fighting against an apartheid state.

[Kungfutea]

Did your dad send suicide bombers to blow up children on their way to school?

[drjohnsonscat]

Maybe not but the IRA have killed many children in their time. And pregnant women. And hundreds of civilians. We were still right to make peace though.

Again conflict is conflict. It's depressingly similar across humankind.

[Kungfutea]

I'm not saying we shouldn't make peace. But its a bit of a problem when the other side don't actually want a peace that doesn't include you not existing anymore.

[Kungfutea]

Drjohnson

I don't think you really understand the middle east conflict.

Firstly, on what basis have you decided Israel is not ready to compromise? At both camp david and Annapolis, Israel showed that it is more than ready to compromise. It was the Palestinians who did not want to give up their dream of having it all. This has been fully corroborated by the Americans. And historical precedent has shown that israel is, in fact, willng to give up land for peace, including the evacuation of settlements. Israel gave up all of the Sinai and evacuated settlements there in exchange for peace with egypt.

It's not a question of not offering again, the offer is still there, it's a question of whether the Palestinians are at a point where they can establish a peaceful state. Is gaza a sign of what we cold expect on the west bank? A hamas led government dedicated the destruction of Israel? Of course, things can change. The PLO renounced terrorism and were brought into the talks. Maybe Hamas will do the same (after all in Egypt hasn't cut off ties with israel) but they're certainly not at that point yet.

One thing is for sure, and where you are completely mistaken, it's not about propsperity. The Palestinians did far far better materially under Israeli rule, especially in the 70s and 89s. They were much more prosperous - certainly more so than Palestinians in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria or Egypt. This is a fact. But it was (and is) unjust and unfair to rule another people and the Palestinians are entitled to full civil rights. Part of the struggle, most of it during the first intifada, was for justice. More recently, especially in the second intifada, Islamic fundamentalism is playing a key role which makes things mire difficult. However, none of this is about prosperity, this is where you are very mistaken. If it was al about prosperity then Israelis have little incentive, the Israeli economy is growing nicely even in a global recession.

I never said the middle east conflict is more unique than any other conflicts are unique. Not sure why you should attribute this to me. I just don't see the parallels with ireland that you see eg Israel already recognised the ex-terrorist PLO with Arafat as its leader as the representative of the palestinian people. Has the Uk recognised the real IRA? That might be a little similar to Hamas, although not much, ie a group that is doing all it can to torpedo a peace process (although Hamas has been elected in gaza so has far more power)

[defuse]

Palestine vs israel
Same as
David vs goliath.

I find it disgusting when people talk of 'out-breeding'. Wouldn't israel be just delighted if palestinians became extinct! Yes, wouldn't you think that a palestinian eoman would stop producing children in the depth of her despair. Israel would love that - they have managed to plunge palestinians into despair, but they cant stop them having kids - unless they sprinkle a little white phosphorous for good measure!

Palestinians have suffered. Their suffering has been greater than israel. Israel is no humane force for the good. I remember watching a documentary about an entire palestinian village being cut off from water supply for week or weeks because the israeli army in the area wanted lovely hot water.

They never want peace and that is pretty obvious to the world. They love the whole notion of apartheid and oppression. As long as they are ok, so what if palestinian kids are dying due to malnutrition, lack of medical aid and the 'regrettable' israeli bomb of course intended to kill the terrorist.

I wonder why israel trains every citizen in military. Because it wants peace right! Of course dear.

It is not ok to build walls in the name of security - most of which is built into palestinian land and not on israel's previously stolen land. It is also called apartheid, albeit thinly veiled as 'security measure'.

It is not ok to fire white phosphorous and hide behind the fact that its because UN says its ok, because israel has broken the most UN resolutions, yet it is not a rogue state -hey, it has gotta be Iran right!

David and goliath is a story that israel is very familiar with. Human suffering is something that israel is also familiar with. But it has learned nothing. It is arrogant, despite being familiar with the fact that david defeated the goliath - and that is why the palestinian children will not put down their catapults and stones against israel's bullets and bombs.

[Kungfutea]

Here we go with the vitriol [rolls eyes].

There was intelligent discussion with some other posters.

But here we go, just to show how ridiculous these points are.

They never want peace and that is pretty obvious to the world
Assuming you mean Israelis by they, I'm afraid you're quite wrong there. In fact, Israel made peace with Egypt and Jordan. Israel also entered into a peace process with the Palestinians and offered them a Palestinian state in the WB and Gaza with Jerusalem as their capital and evacaution of the settlements at both Camp David and Annapolis. This has been independently corroborated by observers of these processes. So, evidence shows that Israel does want peace and, in fact, this is what is pretty obvious to the world which is why the US and other western democracies are supportive of Israel. They know exactly who torpedoed the peace process.

They love the whole notion of apartheid and oppression
No, I'm afraid you're wrong on that one as well. As I have actually lived in Israel (I'm assuming you haven't) and speak Hebrew, I can telll you that Israelis do not love the whole notion of apartheid and oppression (have you ever even spoken to an Israeli?) And I think that your tone smacks of racism ('they' love apartheid) which is quite ironic.

so what if palestinian kids are dying due to malnutrition, lack of medical aid and the 'regrettable' israeli bomb of course intended to kill the terrorist.
Well, firstly, how many Palestinians kids have died due to malnutrition? Since the infant mortality rate in the Palestinian territories is the same as Jordan and less than Egypt on what basis have you decided that Palestinian kids are dying due to malnutrition? SAme regarding medical aid. In fact, if Israel cares so little, then why are so many Palestinian children being treated in Israeli hospitals? And collateral damage in war is regrettable - you can ask your own government how many Afghan and Iraqi citizens have been killed? No excuse, of course more care should be taken to avoid innocent casualties - but certainly no different to any other country in a similar situation

I wonder why israel trains every citizen in military. Because it wants peace right!
You really don't need to be Einstein to figure out that Israel has security needs, in addition to the Palestinians, there's Hezbollah in Lebanon, Syria disintegrating on our northern border, the Sinai descending into lawlessness in the south. Clearly peace needs to come first and then Israel can stop conscripting young people into compulsory national service. THere are many countries which have compulsory national service (Austria, Finland, Singapore, Turkey, Thailand etc). I don't think that that is considered a barrier to peace and is certainly not evidence that Israel does not want peace. What a strange argument!

It is not ok to build walls in the name of security - most of which is built into palestinian land and not on israel's previously stolen land
Actually, it is completely OK to build walls in the name of security. Sometimes they're even called borders! No, the wall should not have been built on Palestinian land but in Israel proper, however, the wall has been moved in places on to Israeli land due to Israeli supreme court rulings. Israel hasn't 'previously stolen land', that's just hyperbole and shows a lack of awareness of the nature of the conflict in 1948 and shows that you are, perhaps, already prejudiced against Israel.

It is not ok to fire white phosphorous and hide behind the fact that its because UN says its ok
Israel agrees and no longer uses white phosphorus in built up areas despite the fact that its use as an obscurfant is indeed permitted. They are now using other non lethal means. Hamas, on the other hand, have intentionally fired white phosphorus at Israeli civillians which is clearly not allowed. I hope you are as equally vociferous in your condemnation of them.

yet it is not a rogue state -hey, it has gotta be Iran right
Yes, that's right. Israel is a western, liberal democracy. Iran, well it isn't. It's turned its guns against its own people many times, it funds hamas and hezbollah and it's propping up the charming Assad regime in Syria. I'm not sure why you'd defend such an odious regime.

It is arrogant, despite being familiar with the fact that david defeated the goliath - and that is why the palestinian children will not put down their catapults and stones against israel's bullets and bombs.
Yeah, that romantic story-line would be nice if it were true. Unfortunately it's not. It's not Palestinian children putting down their catapults and stones (rolls eyes) but suicide bombers blowing up Israeli children celebrating Purim, Israeli teenagers in a discotheque, Israeli families in a restaurant. It's Hamas firing rockets at preschools, hospitals - wherever they can inflict the most damage, despite the fact that not one Israeli settlement remains in Gaza.

[Kungfutea]

Forgot to address one last point

I find it disgusting when people talk of 'out-breeding'.
Yes, so do I. I wish the Palestinian leaders would stop with it already. It's harming their own people and certainly not in the best interst of those children being born!! It was Arafat who declared that the Palestinian woman's womb was his best weapon. I mean, seriously, to have kids to defeat an enemy? WTF???

Wouldn't israel be just delighted if palestinians became extinct!
I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Most of us live in the real world though.

Yes, wouldn't you think that a palestinian eoman would stop producing children in the depth of her despair. Israel would love that - they have managed to plunge palestinians into despair, but they cant stop them having kids
Israel isn't trying to stop Palestinians having children. But you would think that if you lived in one of the most over populated places in the world like Gaza, you might think about having a few less children? That's what happened in Bangladesh with a far lower female education rate and far far more poverty and less development. Again, the ones who suffer from such insanely high fertility are the children themselves, not the Israelis! I just wonder what kind of state the Palestinians are trying to build for themselves.

[Mondrian]

Kungfu, given how Israel has been dotting the entire landscape with settlements how is it even possible to draw a line for a two state solution? Surely if their ultimate aim was for a two state solution they would have left an exit point. However historical, recent and current policy towards creation of new settlements can only mean that Israel has no interest in a two state solution and is looking at endless, outgoing peace talks to preserve status quo which looks like the best outcome for Israel ....

[Kungfutea]

It's difficult but either the settlements are completely evacuated or there is land transfer for some of the large settlement blocks. Its the only way forward in my opinion. The majority of settlers would leave for a financial inducement, most are there because of quality of life, cheap housing, government benefits (god knows why). The Sinai settlements were evacuated for peace with Egypt, the gaza strip settlements were evacuated.

But you're right, it'll be painful for the Israelis and they won't want to do it if the result will be like gaza.

[Mondrian]

It is interesting that Israel has been putting far more resources into building scattered "settlements" all over the country than cities. I think they have lost a lot of friends in their pursuit of settlement expansion.

Their pursuit of peace would have been far more believable had they saved a chunk of the land for any future Palestinian state but instead they have been making the problem so complex that a two state solution is just a distant & very expensive mathematical possibility. ...... I do respect them for being so clever though.

[AnnieLobeseder]

You're being incredibly patient kungfu. I don't think I could be so patient and understanding and take so much time to formulate sensible response to knee-jerk anti-Israeli ranting. It's wonderful how some people don't bother to let facts get in the way of a good prejudice.

FFS, saying Israel has national service because it doesn't want peace is ridiculous. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of the history of the region knows Israel has national service to avoid being obliterated.