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News

Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

310 replies

Kungfutea · 13/03/2013 00:40

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

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Galvanise · 05/04/2013 22:08

Care to discuss israel's record on treatment of palestinian children????

"Israel is the only place in the world where automatically, a child when he is under arrest, is put before a military tribunal," said Jean-Nicolas Beuze, UNICEF's regional adviser on child protection.

"It does exist in other countries (but only) as an exception," he told reporters, "A child is a civilian."

So....When your soldiers are not on duty, they are civilians and therefore must not be targetted by palestinians, but palestinan children are legitimate targets to be put up in israeli military courts and sentenced.

A forward thinking western democracy you say..... Palestinian children are a threat to Israeli security and therefore must be terrorised by interrogaters and sleep deprived and threatened - but they must be put in court for being a huge terror to israel.

The double standards - It is so sickening.

Galvanise · 05/04/2013 22:09

Waiting for you to call israeli treatment of palestinian children rabid anti-israeli propaganda found on anti israeli websites.

Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 22:18

No, I'd agree with you that there are human rights abuses which include Palestinian children.

It'd depend what you said. You know, if you said something along the lines of israelis killing Palestinian children to use their blood for matzo, kind of along the lines of what you said before, then I'd disagree.

The issue is that there is a military ocupation. Everything is done by the military. That's a big issue.

But have too many children died (both Israeli and Palestinian, with many Palestinian children also killed by Palestinians)? Yes, absolutely.

Is insufficient care given to the safety and well-being of Palestinian children by Israel? Yes, I'd unfortunately agree on that one as well.

The solution? Ending the occupation. But we need the Palestinians to help us with that and what they did in Gaza won't inspire Israeli confidence.

What have I said that's a double standard? Please do tell me as I feel that I've been consistent.

Now, why did you lie? Can you not answer that question???

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Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 22:22

One of the differences between you and me Galvanise (apart from the fact that I have integrity and don't lie to score cheap points) is that having lived in israel and having Palestinian friends means that I actually understand both sides.

It's why I can't just glibly pretend all is OK in the WB and gaza, it's not. It's why I can't justify Israel occupying another people and setters in Palestinian territory.

I'm certainly not going to justify cases where Israel is in the wrong.

But I also understand the Israeli side, the desire for peace but the fear of what will happen.

And I can also recognize propaganda, hyperbole and unfairness.

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Mondrian · 05/04/2013 22:25

Ever considered that you are creating this "alleged" hostility? If your objective was to gain some sympathy or enhance Israel's image on MN then you have failed spectacularly .... As Galvanise pointed out this thread has certainly been very educational and an eye opener, so many facts have come out and none have been flattering towards Israel, i am sure the longer you maintain your tone and stature with regards to opposing views and posters we will be enlightened even more.

So Perhaps it is you who is doing a disservice to the Israeli cause!

Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 22:30

I think its telling that both you and galvanise have felt the need to lie.

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Bessie123 · 05/04/2013 22:33

kungfutea you have done a brilliant job of being calm, clear and patient but you are banging your head against a brick wall. These people are not interested in a rational argument. They will never engage with you on a rational basis. They are not able to have a discussion with you. They will not answer your points. They want to see Israel as the bad guy at any cost and I don't think they can cope on a personal level with the idea that their prejudices are probably not true.

I think you should give up - you are wasting your time on these bigots.

Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 22:33

It's also telling that where I felt a fair point was made, I acknowledged as such. Shame such courtesy was not extended to me. This is the way of extremists.

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Bessie123 · 05/04/2013 22:34

An btw, you have done a great job of showing the good things Israel does. Like I said, I found your posts informative and interesting.

Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 22:35

Uh oh bessie. Put your hard hat on. Ms moral compass will attack you for that posting!

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Bessie123 · 05/04/2013 22:37

Which will prove my point Grin

Galvanise · 05/04/2013 22:46

She was quoted by the Associated Press as saying that while Palestinians were "by a long shot" not the only ones affected, she felt the interview must be made public, because "the symbolism, you know, of taking skin of the population considered to be the enemy, [is] something, just in terms of its symbolic weight, that has to be reconsidered."
....

Every israeli citizen is trained in the military. You take skin from your enemy and give it to your nation - a nation where every man and woman is routinely trained in military.

As for you pointing out why i wouldnt like jews - i had mentioned that twice in this thread, but you cared not to mention it then. Then a bit later you scatter ' alhamdulillah' in your messages. Been looking me up much dear?
What are you implying kungfu? Since then, you have also talked non-stop about me visiting anti-israeli websites. I have told you i havent. Careful where you are going with this. It stinks of......um...lets see.....racism perhaps. But of course....only you ave the right to be offended, and no-one else right. Must remember this.

You are far too good to be seen as openly racist though.....especially since you have volunteered with a NGO.

Now....lets talk about rabid anti israeli propaganda found from the the anti-israeli website called unicef which states the horrors experienced by children at the hands of israel.

www.unicef.org/oPt/UNICEF_oPt_Children_in_Israeli_Military_Detention_Observations_and_Recommendations_-_6_March_2013.pdf

To summarise: Over the past decade, Israeli forces have arrested, interrogated and prosecuted around 7,000 children between 12 and 17, mostly boys, UNICEF found, noting the rate was equivalent to "an average of two children each day".

Figures from the end of January show that 233 children are currently being held in custody, 31 of them under the age of 16.

"Israel is the only place in the world where automatically, a child when he is under arrest, is put before a military tribunal," said Jean-Nicolas Beuze, UNICEF's regional adviser on child protection.

"It does exist in other countries (but only) as an exception," he told reporters, "A child is a civilian."

David and goliath.

How do you even stomach defending this and saying israel gets unfair press. I am a mother and i assume you are a mother too. If this was my child or your child being frightened by soldiers, how would you or i live through that -

yet this is a reality for palestinian parents. Sad

stop defending. The level of the persecution and oppression and terror is sickening.

Bessie123 · 05/04/2013 22:56

galvanise I can't believe I'm bothering to try asking about this, but what is your position on the Israeli children being injured or killed and certainly targeted by the rockets being fired in to Israel? And the bombs on school buses? And the Palestinian celebrations when Israeli children die?

Galvanise · 05/04/2013 23:03

Kungfu....do not accuse mondrian or myself as lying....so typical of you and your government to twist things. Oh yes...must remember....kungu, israeli government and IDF always tell the truth.

Israel assassinates, creates apartheid ...oh sorry...silly me....thats not apartheid...it is helping Palestinians with palestinian only buses.

And the best thing about israel is.......
It terrorises children in military tribunals - the only nation in the world to do this on a routine basis -great and civilised isnt it.

this of course comes from the rabid anti Israeli unicef. Lets ignore their rabid ranting...... Let israel continue its greater good in the name of security and grab any child in night raids that it likes. Nothing like emotionslly torturing a parent and child is there!

Whats a Palestinian child eh.....lets grab 7000 of them over 10 years. Lets even attempt a justification and let people applaud the great good that israeli government does. To its own people, perhaps it is good.....but to palestinans and their children....it has made some token gestures but in reality your government has gone lower than low.

Galvanise · 05/04/2013 23:10

Bessie...... You are talking of israeli children....you know my stance on israel...but i can tell you this much...that even when an israeli soldier dies.....that is still some mother's child. Some mother is in anguish. Killing a child or one or many many soldier does not give me any satisfaction if that is what you are implying. It just means more emotional trauma is suffered.

I want to see an aknowledgement of the injustice of the situation. You cant just say, ignore all our incursions on your land, the illegal settlements, the building of settlements that us continuiing, the white phoephorous, the peope in jail without trial, the children who are being tried in military tribunals after fake confessions, the torture, the raids, the control of everything even the control f fruit and veg and medical supplies - and lets talk peace!

It is so vile.

Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 23:11

I didn't look anyone up - mondrian told me! It's her parry trick.

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Galvanise · 05/04/2013 23:13

There was so much i did not know and still do not know of how israel makes daily life so intolerable for palestinians.....but am earning more and more of israeli atrocities as i am looking into it. It is horrifying. Sad

Bessie123 · 05/04/2013 23:24

I wasn't asking if the death of Israeli children gives you satisfaction, I was asking whether you condemn it

Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 23:45

I can tell you all about my lovely friend who was blown up if you're interested :(

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Kungfutea · 05/04/2013 23:48

I'm more interested to know if galvanise supports the two state solution or if they should keep going unti they get it all a la hamas.

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Bessie123 · 05/04/2013 23:54

kungfutea start small, look for signs of rational thought Wink

Kungfutea · 06/04/2013 01:58

I know, it's so vile to say 'let's talk peace' and try and end the situation. Unfortunately one has to make peace with one's enemies, they tend to be people you don't like much and believe have done horrible things to you. I'd much rather make peace with the swedes but that wouldn't do much good, we're stuck with the Palestinians and they're stuck with us.

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Kungfutea · 06/04/2013 02:01

I think the thing about the rabid anti Israel movement in England is that extremist loony left (like ken livingstone) has formed an unholy alliance with the Muslim fringe (like lord Ahmed). I'm in the us right now and people here are far more understanding of israel's position.

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Bessie123 · 06/04/2013 02:15

This is a very simplistic interpretation but it seems to me that people in the uk, particularly people who identify themselves with an organisation on the left, love to feel like they are supporting the underdog. Palestinian movements are all about them being to victims, whether they are using their own kids as human shields, blowing up school buses or firing rockets at hospitals. The more left wing the organisation, the more childishly black and white (socialist worker party etc). It is not the same as having left wing leanings which are considered and humane, it is about an identity and the feeling of fighting against a big, bad oppressor. There must be one...

Bessie123 · 06/04/2013 02:16

I met Ken Livingstone briefly once. His eyes looked like he was insane.

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