Palestinian rocket killed bbc journalist's baby in Gaza

[Kungfutea]

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/palestinian-rocket-killed-baby-gaza

I thought this may be of interest considering how much exposure the original story (blaming Israel) got.

And I'd like you to show me where in that Guardian article (which itself presented the information in a biased way - this was NOT a scandal which was directed at Palestinians in any way, but any body during this time which came to the center for an autopsy) it says anything about skin being grafted from Palestinians to Israeli soldiers.

I'm 100% sure that this kind of thing is what goes around on the rabid anti-Israel websites, total sickos.

I'm copying and pasting the whole article for your benefit, Galvanise, so you can show me where it talks about any kind of skin graft, let alone that from Palestinians to Israeli soldiers.WHERE DOES IT SAY A WORD ABOUT SKIN GRAFTS?????? Maybe my assumptions are true.

Guardian article on Abu Kabir scandal (which BTW, unlike is suggested by the opening paragraph, did not discriminate in any way between Israelis and Palestinians but indiscriminately took body parts for research from bodies which came for autopsy)
---------------
Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families ? a practice it said ended in the 1990s ? it emerged at the weekend.

The admission, by the former head of the country's forensic institute, followed a furious row prompted by a Swedish newspaper reporting that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to use their organs ? a charge that Israel denied and called "antisemitic".

The revelation, in a television documentary, is likely to generate anger in the Arab and Muslim world and reinforce sinister stereotypes of Israel and its attitude to Palestinians. Iran's state-run Press TV tonight reported the story, illustrated with photographs of dead or badly injured Palestinians.

Ahmed Tibi, an Israeli Arab MP, said the report incriminated the Israeli army.

The story emerged in an interview with Dr Yehuda Hiss, former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv. The interview was conducted in 2000 by an American academic who released it because of the row between Israel and Sweden over a report in the Stockholm newspaper Aftonbladet.

Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.

The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."

Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family."

However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported. Aftonbladet quoted Palestinians as saying young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been seized by the Israeli forces and their bodies returned to their families with missing organs. The interview with Hiss was released by Nancy Scheper-Hughes, professor of anthropology at the University of California-Berkeley who had conducted a study of Abu Kabir.

She was quoted by the Associated Press as saying that while Palestinians were "by a long shot" not the only ones affected, she felt the interview must be made public, because "the symbolism, you know, of taking skin of the population considered to be the enemy, [is] something, just in terms of its symbolic weight, that has to be reconsidered."

Israel demanded that Sweden condemn the Aftonbladet article, calling it an antisemitic "blood libel". Stockholm refused, saying that to so would violate freedom of speech in the country. The foreign minister then cancelled a visit to Israel, just as Sweden was taking over the EU's rotating presidency.

Hiss was removed from his post in 2004, when some details about organ harvesting were first reported, but he still works at the forensic institute.

Israel's health ministry said all harvesting was now done with permission. "The guidelines at that time were not clear," it said in a statement to Channel 2. "For the last 10 years, Abu Kabir has been working according to ethics and Jewish law."

I read the whole thread again, I saw one of your posts being striken off for being naughty (was it racist?) and someone else's which I assume you reported ... So why not report me? I am sure I'd get my post striken off and/or hand slapped by MN if I was racist or anti-semitic in anyway and if not then it just proves what you are.

Anyway I want to move on and talk about the role of Israeli regime and Ariel Sharon in the Sabra & Shatila massacre of 3500 Palestinians.

I prefer to let your posts stand. But I do love that you trawl through the thread trying to dig up dirt on me, and the worst you can find is one deleted post.

If you hadn't been racist, then you'd have had no reason to lie and you'd have truthfully explained how you decided who was Jewish and who was non Jewish.

Id ike to expose the rabid anti Israeli movement for what it is.

I've been more than happy to criticize israel when israel is in the wrong. Allowing the Christian maronites to carry out the sabra and shatila massacres in 1982 was a huge dereliction of duty on israel's part when it was clear that something like that would happen. An Israeli commission of inquiry held Sharon responsible. There were massive demonstrations in israel after this happened.

But I'm not going to discuss every event in all of israels history! I mean, why not just bring up the bombing of the king David hotel 70 years ago - oh, wait, you did!
If you look at any country's history for long enough, you'll find things they're not proud of. Israel is no different. No excuse for demonising and villifying israel which is the point I'm making throughout.

And moving on when there are still SO many unanswered questions from things you already said?
For example,

Comparing Iranian and Israeli treatment of journalists, particularly the apparently persecuted Amira Hass

Evidence of the YouTube video conspiracy?

A truthful explanation for your racist comments?

A truthful explanation for your intellectual dishonesty?

You really should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm sure you'd love nothing more than to have that post deleted!

yes yes...how dare those palestinians have a whole UN agency dedicated to them when Israel is trying so hard to take away what very little they have left. Especially when Israel is sooooo busy breaking every UN resolution going!

I am kind of glad that i came on this thread because i didnt know the extent of israel's vile and manipulative behaviour until I started reading your comments and those of others. Then i went on the news websites to confirm the stories and found so much more that was shocking - the apartheid buses being one of the things. The audacity to be so open about such racism. Your government has been openly racist with the buses, although there excuse seems to be something else.....and you are complaining so much about a comment on this thread.

There was a Rosa Parks moment in south Africa....and now I await a Rosa Parks moment on these buses too.

Another fact that I found out recently is that Israel regularly refuses to allow palestinians to leave palestine to study abroad. Always curfews and control. It is disgusting. So it robs them of any chance of a great academic opportunities which in turn gives way to despair. We all know what happens when you rob a human of hope.

You claim not to be racist yourself...but you have very little token sympathy for your palestinian neighbours.

I have not actually visited a single anti-israel site...all my information has come from news sites which i have quoted. Love the fact that you are ranting about some rabid anti-israeli movement when the entire israeli existence seems to be one big anti-palestine movement. An act they have shown time and time again.

You are talking of others being ashamed of themselves - have you not felt any shame when your government takes away a palestinian child's home, water, family....whilst yours are not faced with that uncertainty (mine neither). You are trying to paint your governments as something wonderful when really they are nothing but bullying thugs who love a little war to further their cause.

as for missle throwing - care to compare how many missiles have been thrown by palestine compared with Israel -care to compare who managed to kill more?? Care to compare how many palestinians pay the price for every israeli killed? Is it only israeli who feel pain? Do palestinians not feel pain? Yet the palestinians don't stop either. Ever wondered why?

Ultimately...the value of palestinian life is nothing compared with the value of israeli life right! and that is not racist right - but a comment on this thread - that was not deleted - as it was not deemed racist.

Or is it only israelis who decide what is racist and what pain and suffering is. As i say...i have utmost respect for jews -more for those who denounce israel -

but I have little respect for people who come on here gloating about Israeli achievements and their governement and then wondering why it gets such bad press!

Very nice speech Galvanise.

If you actually read what I wrote, you'd see that I've completely agreed that Israel should not be occupying the Palestinians. The settlements are only one issue, the Palestinians should not be living under military rule and I completely agree that they're entitled to full civil rights like anyone else.

But YOU said the Palestinians just have stones. I only pointed out that that's simply not true.

Of course Palestinians feel pain, have I said differently? That's just your rhetoric, trying to make out like Israelis are terrible brutes who don't care. I do care - as I've said consistently throughout. All I'm saying is that Israel is disproportionately criticized, demonised and villified and the Palestinians whitewashed and beatified. And, al-hamdullillah, you're doing a great job in proving my point.

It's true that the Palestinians are the ones who are ultimately paying the greater price for starting the second intifada, including many innocent people. It makes the imperative to find a political solution to peace even more important, both for them and us.

Did you try to get this thread deleted as racist? Certainly no racism from me, if I made a racist comment then please do point it out as it certainly wouldn't have been intentional. As for Mondrian's racist comment, well that's still to be explained. Are you trying to suggest that Mumsnet are part of an Israeli conspiracy? Well, we do control the internet you know!

Why wouldn't you have the utmost respect for Jews? Very strange statement. I also have the utmost respect for Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and atheists, especially those who are fair and unbiased.

I have very little respect for people who come on here with rabid anti Israeli reviews, ranting and raving and then LYING about what they said!

I notice you haven't pointed out to me where the Guardian said a word about skin grafts from Palestinians to IDF soldiers? Can you please do so. If you can't, then please at least admit that either you got it from the rabid anti-Israel websites or that you have a pretty sick mind.

BTW, I didn't report Mondrian's comment. I don't want it deleted. I think she should be held accountable for what she writes.

Just like I wouldn't want your blood libel completely unsubstantiated comment about Palestinian skin being grafted on to IDF soldiers to be deleted.

I want the rabid anti-Israel movement to be shown for what it is - a bunch of extremist and racist liars and manipulators of the truth who are actually undermining the peace process!

BTW Galvanise, the buses are a red herring. As I've said before, the problem is that Israel shouldn't be occupying the West Bank.

The bus routes are not just for Palestinians. Palestinians can still use Israeli-provided public transport. But Israeli public transport doesn't usually go into the Palestinians towns and villages (you don't have to be a genius to work out why) but to and from the settlements and towns in Israel. The ministry of transport is putting on a bus line from the Palestinian town of Qalqilya to Kfar Saba and Raanana (Israeli towns on the other side of the green line) to replace the unlicensed minibuses which ferry the workers to these towns and charge extortionate sums.

Actually, when I lived in Jerusalem, there'd be these minibuses run by Palestinian companies which go from Damascus Gate to Bethlehem and Ramallah, stopping in mainly arab areas. I know that as an Israeli I'd be very unwelcome on those minibuses. Is that apartheid? On the other hand, the new tram built in Jerusalem goes through Shoafat and Beit Hanina - Arab areas of Jerusalem. Of course there are no restrictions on who can use the tram. So hardly apartheid!

Again, the issue of the buses is disproportionate criticism of Israel. At the end of the day, the Palestinians should be in their own state providing their own transport wherever they want to go, but to criticize Israel for running a service from Qalqilya to Kfar Saba which will naturally serve the Palestinians because no Israelis (no Israeli Jews at any rate) live in Qalqilya is unfair in my opinion.

So upon international pressure Israeli state starts the Kahan Commission (internal) to investigate the sabra and shatila massacre who find Ariel Sharon responsible for the massacre of 3500 Palestinians and what happens ... Is he sentenced to life, is he sacked as a minister, does he get a slap on his wrist ..... no he gets to remain as a minister (without portfolio) and goes on to be elected as the 11th Prime minister of Israel!!! ..... ELECTED?

Yes, that's fair enough. He was sacked as defense minister but I'd like to have seen more accountability. Indeed, he's the one who got Israel into Lebanon and actually lied to the knesset about where the IDF was! He didn't have permission to go to Beirut, he was supposed to go in for 40km to prevent the Palestinians firing missiles (sound familiar!). But he had a rather Machiavellian idea to prop up a Christian pro-Israel govt in Lebanon and have the Palestinians chased out to Jordan where they'd cause the regime there to collapse and establish a Palestinian state.

However, let's not forget that he didn't direct the massacre by the Christians Phalangists. But, yes, he could have prevented it and he didn't.

You may find that many distasteful characters later reinvent themselves in politics. Like Gerry Adams and Yasser Arafat and, indeed, Yitzhak Shamir or Winston Churchill. I didn't vote for him but I've got to admit he wasn't a bad PM. He made the decision to evacuate the Gaza settlements and he did it, no PM from the left would ever had managed to do that.

I'm not sure, however, what point you're trying to make. This is like someone starting a post about Britain in Iraq and someone else wanting to talk about the bombing of Dresden and Bloody Sunday.

Now, how about a truthful explanation for your racism? Still nothing? Still no explanation for your racist comments? Strange that. Why did you lie?

How about an explanation for your intellectual dishonest? No?

oh,and I forgot
evidence for youtube conspiracy please

Nice article in Haaretz today expressing some of the points i've been making:
www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/in-defense-of-my-visit-to-jerusalem.premium-1.513672

He wasn't sacked ... Minister (defence) before and minister after (alas without a portfolio), and for the record he was the one who championed building of settlements in Gaza & West Bank in the first place.

I am still on the topic of comparing Israel to Iran, this being an example of their indirect involvements in acts of terror on foreign soil.

In response to the Sabra & Shatila massacre and occupation of Lebonan Hezbollah carried out a series of bombings on American and French troops (barracks & embassy) in 1983 killing over 400 soldiers and staff. Hezbollah is widely believed to have been backed by Iran the same way the Phalangists were backed by Israel.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel to find any similarities. And the Americans supported the contras in Nicaragua. Nothing you are saying makes Israel uniquely resemble Iran any more than it resembles America.

I mean, you might as well say that they watch television in Iran and they watch television in Israel as well!

I can't believe I'm deigning this with a response but whatever.

Let's look at some of the differences.

Let's compare Israeli and Iranian treatment of homosexuals.

Israel: Live openly, gay pride marches in Tel Aviv, adopt children, openly gay MPs, openly gay men and women in military.

Iran: Crime punishable by imprisonment, corporal punishment, execution. Many have been executed in recent years.

Let's compare Israeli and Iranian threats to US and British interests.

Israel: Friend of Britain and US

Iran: Calls US ''great satan' and UK 'little satan'. Caused the deaths of Briish and US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Let's compare Israeli and Iranian treatment of political opponents.

Israel: Liberal democracy, free speech, right to protest
Iran: None. In 2009, hundreds of protesters for democracy killed and many more imprisoned (many also killed) and tortured.

Let's compare freedom of press

Israel: Free and open press, often critical of Israeli policy and leaders, free access to internet
Iran: Journalists killed, arrested and expelled. No free press. No free access to internet.

Freedom house refers to Israel as having a free press and to Iran as having a not free press and not free internet.
^

Shall I go on? I can of course.

I think you might find, my dear Mondrian, that Israel and Iran, despite your wishful thinking to the contrary, are in fact very different places. I know where I'd rather live, liking western and liberal democractic values and all that.

Evidence for youtube conspiracy, none?

Truthful explanation of racist comments, none?

This thread has really been enlightening.

It's reinforced my view that the rabid anti-Israel mob, exemplified by Galvanise, Defuse, Mondrian and others, really don't have much of a basis for their demonisaton of Israel.

I think that if you are really sure of yourself then you don't need to lie, distort information, insult others and you certainly should be able to explain yourself.

First Mondrian makes racist assumptions and refuses to explain them and then makes a baldface LIE, then plays the victim but STILL no truthful explanation.

Defuse accuses all Israelis of being apartheid lovers and war mongers (we just can't help ourselves)

Mondrian then gets Israeli history back to front but can't even admit her error.

Then Galvanise came on here and in her opening sentence said that what I say is propaganda but hasn't yet provided an explanatin why my views, thoughts and feelings are propaganda but hers aren't.

Mondrian makes allegations of an Israeli YouTube conspiracy but refuses to provide any evidenec to back it up.

Mondrian also copies and pastes from wikipedia intentionally leaving out key information.

And Galvanise makes an outrageous statement that Palestinian skin is being grafted on to IDF soldiers, LIES that it was in the article she linked to - and then refuses to even ACKNOWLEDGE the lie.

And any time I call any of them on these various lovely acts, I get told that Israel does worse so how dare I even suggest that anyone should be ashamed of any of the lies, distortions and bullying that's gone on on this thread .

Blimey, quite the gang of thugs!

Yes we know all about Freedom house who as an NGO get their financing from US government ... Who in turn has provided over 115 billion dollars in aid to Israel since Inception. No wonder Freedom House is seen as "furthering us foreign policy" ..... And of course I am sure Iran would be friends with one way benefits if they were given such aid. BTW Palestinians got 4 billion over the same period.

As for freedom of press and Journalists lets look at a truly independent body such as reporters without borders and guess what they rank Israel & Iran along with North Korea & Syria in the "Predators of Press Freedom"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_without_Borders

BTW have you seen how "unfriendly press" is treated in Israel
mondoweiss.net/2013/03/authorities-british-photojournalist.html

How come an Israeli reporter such as Hass has been to prison twice? What was her crime? To report from Gaza?

As for executions, one calls them drug dealers and the other "collateral damage" life is a life doesn't matter if you hang them, assassinate them in Dubai or drop phosphorous bombs on them.

BTW how many Palestinians in Israeli prisons without charges? How many of them are under age? What about the millions in the two prison camps (gaza, WB)?

Now lets see what Danny Zaken, Chairman of the Jerusalem branch of the International Federation of Journalists (IFJ) has to say about the freedom of the press in Israel. ?The decision of the attorney general to file an indictment against Uri Blau brings Israel back a generation, and casts into doubt its definition as a real democratic state. The decision joins a string of legislative moves designed to harm the status of journalism and its critical role in ensuring the existence of a democratic regime. Uri Blau?s articles went through the censor, and the Haaretz journalist did what any good journalist must do: expose to the public what is being hidden from it, for it to judge."

Better add him to your rather long list of undesirables too!

Love your conspiracy theories Mondrian. That's slander! Just because you don't like what Freedom House says!! Dear oh dear.

Amira Hass was briefly detained twice and then released as she'd
entered Gaza without a permit, as any Israeli citizen must have. Poor woman was actually hounded out of Gaza by Hamas who didn't like what she was saying about them. Now that's press freedom for you! This is EXACTLY my point about disproportionate criticism of Israel.

She's never spent a night in jail.

Do you know that if you lie to immigration officials in the UK like that guy who wanted to enter Israel did then you also get denied entry! Funny how BBC doesn't seem to have a problem getting journalists into Israel.

You also demonstrated YET AGAIN how little you know about the middle east when you also tried to compare Hezbollah and the Christian Maronites.

Hezbollah was ESTABLISHED by Iran and run by Iran with the express purpose of attacking Israel. It's a shi''ite muslim organization set up by Iran to represent their interests. It'd be a bit like Israel setting up a Jewish paramilitary group in London to protect Jewish interests. The Christians were not established by Israel. They were allies and Israel supported them as they were friendly to Israel and they also wanted to see the Palestinians gone from Lebanon where they'd set up their own mini-state.

No, I won't add people who disagree with me to a list of undesirables, thanks. That's what we call democracy.

Already addressed prison camp issue (hyperbole) and the holding of prisoners without charge. It'd help if you read what I posted.

Now

EXPLANATION OF YOUR RACIST COMMENTS PLEASE

EVIDENCE FOR ISRAELI YOUTUBE CONSPIRACY PLEASE

You're really just showing yourself up when you refuse to provide an explanation for your comments. Very sad :( So hypocritical!!!

You can ask me to explain and justify each and every statement that I made. I have no problem doing so.

Btw mondrian, pls don't copy and paste quotes.

You've already shown that you're an unreliable source and that you don't have integrity.

Another 2 teenagers dead in palestine - israeli soldiers killed them.

Your government will only rest when it has completely broken the palestinians or completely wiped them out.

Israel holds palestinans without trial and wonders why the uproar after termial illness. It s more symbolic than anything else of the plight of the palestinians at the mercy of israel - and israel likes to be the modern day pharoah thinking it can do whatever it likes.

It most certainly is david and goliath - whether you admit it or not.

Does israel never cover up any of its crimes against humanity?
Has it never waged a war on people who do not have its military might?
Has it never broken UN resolutions?
Has it been a beacon of peace in the middle east?

Calling the buses a red herring s extremely offensive - tell that to someone experiencing racism on a day to day basis. oh, i forgot - only you hold the right to be offended by racism and no-one else. you hide behind your versions of truth - which are lies wrapped up to distract from the truth.
Why do you think

Yet another despicable act by IDF - quick to cover up and believe only one version - their version of events.

www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/judge-orders-release-of-palestinian-after-video-proves-soldiers-used-unreasonable-force-1.464804

Do not come back and tell me how great their judicial system is for proving palestinian guy's innocence. He was tortured because the soldier thought he insulted him - your soldiers have destroyed these people's existence - and they feel that palestinians shoud not even utter a word.

It s horrific how IDF thinks its ok to treat palestinians like 'shit' but does not allow them to call them 'shit' - because that is what's offensive right! It warrants many soldiers coming and torturing ths guy doesnt it. My apologies for bad language - it was just so that i could express this point relevant to the story

The guy who died OF CANCER had been tried and found guilty of attempted murder as he tried to blow up a cafe, it only failed because the bombs didn't explode, al-hamdulillah. He hadn't been held without trial. So your arguments fails on that point. it's not symbolic of anything.

Your government will only rest when it has completely broken the palestinians or completely wiped them out.
Puhlease. Hyperbole again. Who are the ones whose stated desire is to wipe Israel off the map? Hamas! We had a peace process, the Palestinians torpedoed it. Yet again, unjustified vilification of Israel.

'Breaking' the Palestinians is in no-one's interest, least of all the Israeli. And no-one is trying to 'completely wipe them out' - again, anti-Israel propaganda!!! If Israel were trying to completely wipe them out, then why would 100,000 Palestinaisn be treated inIsraeli (govt) hospitals??? You know not of what you speak, my dear, too much time on the rabid anti-Israel websites methinks.

The vast majority of Israelis want the two state solution. It's the best thing for the Palestinians as well. Shame Arafat couldn't give up on the one-state solution (ie no more Israel).

Here we go with David and Goliath . Well, if you've agreed a peace process with Goliath then hadn't you better stick to it if you're David? What the heck was Arafat thinking when he started the second intifada.

Now, why did YOU lie? Have you taken a leaf from Mondrian's book and you're just baldfaced lying?

Where did the Guardian say a word about skin grafts from Palestinians to IDF soldiers?

And why is what I say propaganda, but what you say isn't???

Why can't you justify what you say???? Why did you LIE!!!!

I think you'll find, Galvanise, that I already agreed on many points, such as the fact that the occupation and military rule has led to human rights abuses.

You see, for most of us in the world, it's not black and white, Palestinians = bad and Israelis = good (or vice versa).

If you actually read what I posted, then you'd see that, no, I'm saying all is OK. I know exactly what happens in the West Bank and I don't happen to agree with it. We need to get out of there and not prevent another people having the same rights that we have.

I'd agree with you that what happened to that Palestinian man is not OK. i also said that the IDF is acting as an occupation army. I've always said that the occupation is the root cause. You can see that througout all my posting. What I did say is that it is acting as any other occupation army, be it US or UK or whatever. The issue is ending the occupation.

But there's so much unjustified criticism, so much demonisation and vilification.

You actually undermine the Palestinian cause with your rabid anti-Israeliness.

By posting your blood libel hysterical and unsubstantiated lieclaim that Palestinian skin is being grafted on to IDF soldiers, clamouring that Israel is responsible for the terminal death from cancer of an attempted murderer and screaming racism because Israel lays on buses (which anyone can use) from a Palestinian town to Israel, it's easy to lose sight of the fact that there is justified crticism (more often than not from Israel itself) and there are genuine human rights abuses which need to be addressed.

But it is funny that what doesn't make the news is that Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel for the last few days (missing with a lot of them which land in the Gaza strip, but, hey, Hamas doesn't care about a few dead Palestinians - as long as they can get an Israeli or two). Ah well. Twas always thus.