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Original poster

Troubled families have too many children ?

444 replies

BridgetJonesPants · 21/07/2012 09:52

AIBU to agree with this article written by Louise Casey, the Prime Minister's troubled families tsar?

uk.news.yahoo.com/troubled-families-too-many-children-022219547.html

Although I have no idea how you can get 'these mothers' who have probably had a chaotic upbringing themselves to take responsibility for not having any more children.

OP posts:
nkf · 22/07/2012 16:45

www.leicestershiretogether.org/211111_ethographer_report.pdf

This has been an eyeopening read for me. It was linked on that Zoe Williams' article.

carernotasaint · 22/07/2012 16:51

forcing them in groups three to care for them for 10 hours a day in local community centres whilst their ex girl friends did work fare to earn their benefits.

Workfare again? Jesus Christ thats some peoples answer to everything. what about people like Couthy who if i recall was in quite a well paid job before she got ill and therefore paid her taxes. Someone on workfare is displacing a paid job. Someone on workfare can NOT afford to go out and spend so it doesnt help the economy either.

carernotasaint · 22/07/2012 16:58

If they did not have sex until they were married to the man they might avoid some of these problems of course...

I take it you extend the same viewpoint to men. That they should keep their trousers zipped until wearing a wedding ring. You are sounding more like a Catholic priest than a feminist.
This mysogynistic attitude is one of the reasons i walked. (i was brought up catholic) And what if the man decides to walk out DURING the marriage. What would be your next suggestion? To keep him manacled in the cellar. YAY then it can be the womans fault if he breaks free from those manacles and "escapes" Women are mostly blamed when the man walks anyway.
Xenia youre not Nadine Dorries are you?

carernotasaint · 22/07/2012 17:03

I ended up not using the coil that I wanted to try because I was told by my surgery that I couldn't pre book an appointment so had to join in the scramble on the phone at 8am, and that it was only done by one doctor on Tuedays and it was best to be done while I was on my period. Which made it extremely difficult for me to get the contraception I wanted. And now my children are school age, I know nothing of children's centres, but I still need contraception
Outraged ive had exactly the same problem in the past with the contraceptive injection. Surgeries and employers both seem to think that women can start and stop their periods to suit their timetables. The initial first injection has to be done early on in your period too.

carernotasaint · 22/07/2012 17:05

And a LOT of the men in this situation refuse point blank to have a vasectomy, despite the PCT being happy to do them on any man over 30 with two DC's. A Woman who has two DC's can't get sterilised here till they are 38!!

More inequality. And yet they STILL see fit to blame it all on women.

bnad · 22/07/2012 17:21

There are just some people who are beyond help as their lives and outlook on the world is that dysfunctional and are just a blackhole for time,effort and money.

solidgoldbrass · 22/07/2012 17:40

Bnad: Yes, CEOs of failed corporations that underpay their low-level staff, award themselves huge bonuses and have to be bailed out by the taxpayer could well be described in those terms.

Don't forget, everyone, when you're playing 'bash the poor' and basically saying that these filthy pigs should just stop having sex, there are plenty of rich people and organisations who have severely damaged the infrastructure of society in order to enrich themselves. We pay a fortune for the sodding Royals and they don't give many of us anything back, after all.

alemci · 22/07/2012 17:52

solid brass the royals are one reason for tourism and I think they do generate some wealth.

I said earlier that i thought the men should be a bit less promiscuous if they are not going to put their hands in their pockets and pay for their children.

I suppose ideally it would be better if women were a bit more selective about who they slept with and expected more committment.

I know the women probably equate the sex with being loved. I do understand that and maybe if they have a child the man would stay with them.

edam · 22/07/2012 17:58

"there is an ever increasing number of people who are completely disconnected with the rest of society and behave in a highly dysfunctional way, they then pass this on to their children who continue the cycle"

Yeah, and they are called the present Cabinet, investment (hah!) bankers and fat cat businesspeople like G4S Nick Buckles or A4E ex-Chair Emma Harrison.

carernotasaint · 22/07/2012 18:04

Agree with edam.

Birdsgottafly · 22/07/2012 18:45

I know the women probably equate the sex with being loved

So do some of the men, many have never had a family and believe that they can this time. They don't have the means toprovide a home etc, so find women with a house and children already.

Then they do what they think you do, they have their own baby,or in some cases, they wait for the DNA to come back.

These are not run of the mill LP's these families follow particular patterns, often throughout the generations.

You know when you are getting old, when the daughters and grandaughters of your first cases need pre-birth assessments and you handle their CP plan on their newborn.

nkf · 22/07/2012 18:50

Birds, that is sad. Are there any who break the pattern? And, if so, is there anything we could learn from them.

HaitchJay · 22/07/2012 19:00

So do some of the men, many have never had a family and believe that they can this time. They don't have the means toprovide a home etc, so find women with a house and children already.

I'm working with a family like this. It's v sad and things aren't going well for the kids either

Birdsgottafly · 22/07/2012 19:14

Both parents are victims, not just the women.

These are not men who are the 'players' and 'jack the lads', they are very tragic people.

Those that engage with services, workon their issues and in some cases break from family members/friends that drag them back down, dobreak out of the cycle.

A lot depends on who they have a relationship with, sometimes two people, even if they have issues compliment and bring out the best in each other, then they can go on to parent well.

That does depend on the services around and available to them.

nkf · 22/07/2012 19:46

What are they victims of?

Birdsgottafly · 22/07/2012 19:56

"What are they victims of"

Their upbringing, or lack of.

The lackof support directed to them, if they have come through the care/prison system.

The environment that they grew up in, DV, abusive, neglectful.

Their status within society and their lackof choice, or the failing of the education system.

A lot of the adults that i see are the products of not having the threaseholds high enough in CP and they were left in circumstances which has almost destroyed their chances from the off.

nkf · 22/07/2012 19:59

Do we say then that at some point, people's circumstances have been so bad that they are not responsible for their choices?

You wrote earlier about the cycle? Does anyone ever escape? And, if so, how?

Mrbojangles1 · 22/07/2012 20:15

Nkf because the amout pf children the courts are allowing to be removed is ever increasing and sadly its not uncommon for these types of familes to have 8 or 9 children

My current placemnet is one of 8 all pervious chikdren removed and placed for adoption and the sacery thing is mum is in her early 30s so could easily go on to have 4 or 5 more Shock

you have situations were mum turns up to a court hearing for one child whilest pregant with another

Also the most shocking part i have seen so far is when mum is slept with so many men she is not clear on the race or the perternity of the child
We have had children were we have no clue weather the child is mixed, asian or black Shock

My iggest thing is that the fact their pregant yet again is not seen as a sighn by sw r the courts that mum really dose not GET IT

And even though we watched this program it still seems some dont belive these families are real its like foster carers and social workers are just making this up

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jan/24/social-work-portrayal-protecting-our-children its not bashing the poor its trying to save children form a life of nelgect and having input by police and ss

Mrbojangles1 · 22/07/2012 20:22

Nfk sadly the majorty of familes domt break the cycle this may be very controversial but the children who usually break the cycle arethe ones who are adopted from a young age or those reciving long term carer for a foster carer with limted contact with their chaotic family

One child i worked with went home to live with their parent but the parents care was so poor they needed 20 hours a week of support work

Someone to come in the moring to make sure the child was getting to school and was beeing washed, someone to come in the evening to make sure parent had approtate visitors and that the child was being fed and put to bed at a decent hour

In my view if the parent still needs that much input to insure the childs needs are being meet the parent is not ready
Sadly just like any other task in life some people just cant get the hang of parenting

Birdsgottafly · 22/07/2012 20:25

"Do we say then that at some point, people's circumstances have been so bad that they are not responsible for their choices?"

No, they have to be shown how they have choice an can be responsible.

During parenting assessments parents are challenged over their perception of why services are involved, how things can change and what it takes to make that change.

There is no question that they are held responsible for their choices that impact negatively on their children and that the behaviour cannot carry on.

Some breakout of the lifestyle, others don't.

Mrbojangles1 · 22/07/2012 20:37

BirdsgottaflySorry birds i dont agree with the parent assement as such

They knw when they are going to be and can prep giving the "answers that are wanted"

Often the assemnts are carried out in comcat centre which are not real world envorments

Why is a parent assor best placed to judge weather or not a parent has shown growth why cant the police the school and the sw and foster carer be enough in my biew their views are to heavily relied on above all other professionals they see the parent for 14 weeks the school and police have often have know the family for years

thekidsrule · 22/07/2012 20:46

dna ALL children at birth

would save a hell of alot of time and agony in the future

Birdsgottafly · 22/07/2012 21:24

"They knw when they are going to be and can prep giving the "answers that are wanted""

Parenting assessment go through what the issues are and ask the parent for their take on it.

They catologue the background and the explanations for what has happened.

Parents are challenged over events and why advice wasn't taken on board, this can include why contraception wasn't used, or the parent hasn't kept their own appointments.

These are done after removal and pre birth, as well as when the children are subject to a plan.

These are seperate to parenting capability.

Parenting Assessments are carried out by me (the SW), the family support worker and others.

Birdsgottafly · 22/07/2012 21:28

For the families that this article refers to, there will be years of parenting assessments done and statements by professionals that know the family.

I am dealing with two cases at present, i don't have to ask the parents background (but i will), because i was involved with their families/parents case, 10 years ago.

A lot of truth comes out post removal, during assessments and you do always think that if they had been honest, or workedwith us, then it wouldn't have come to this.