Troubled families have too many children ?

[BridgetJonesPants]

AIBU to agree with this article written by Louise Casey, the Prime Minister's troubled families tsar?

uk.news.yahoo.com/troubled-families-too-many-children-022219547.html

Although I have no idea how you can get 'these mothers' who have probably had a chaotic upbringing themselves to take responsibility for not having any more children.

Again, the lack of ability to get sterilised when you already have a large family is what is causing these issues.

Most of these women wouldn't NEED to be forced to be sterilised, they would jump at the chance.

However, a lot if them would be up in arms about being forced to take hormonal contraception that gives them horrible side effects.

I thought what I suggested though was a current Government proposal - that unmarried women be obliged to name the father and there has been a lot of debate about that in the press - quite rightly, along the lines of women may not know which of several men, why should they be forced to etc etc

DNA test them all, make it mandatory.

And if the mother NEEDS more than one man tested, make her pay the costs of the DNA tests on all except the REAL father. That way the state doesn't bear the cost.

It DOES seem unfair to me that a woman can sleep with more than one man, have a baby not knowing which is the father, then have DNA tests done that she doesn't have to pay for, yet when the father takes a DNA test they proves he IS the father, he is made to pay.

That IS double standards.

I think men/fathers would receive equal attention/bashing were the 120,000 or so "problem families" (as identified by the 2004 criteria mentioned earlier in this thread) were headed by men.

They're not.

Any evidence for this claim EdithWeston?

Thanks for your summary of the report, merrymouse. So, basically, this 'czar' has just discovered how abuse cycles through the generations, recognised the inadequacies of current services ... and gone "Awful! Something Must Be Done!".

Then, possibly because no-one told her what to think next, said "Let's fine them for being dysfunctional!" And made proposals that will put yet more children from abusive families into an abusive care system - which she has already identified as perpetuating the problem.

Dear Louise Casey,
Has it not yet occurred to you that dysfunctional men and women, from dysfunctional backgrounds, don't actually know how to be functional?
You won't be able to punish them into functionality; that fallacy is what perpetuates the cycle.
Consider long-term family support and education instead.
Yours,
A dysfunctional family member
(who has cost the State and BUPA a large amount of money but, luckily for you, doesn't have any children.)

Couthy: when I was younger, the children of families which genuinely couldn't get all DC to school on time used to have state-funded taxis. This caused a lot of ignorant outrage, even in that more considerate era - would I be right in thinking this kind of pragmatic assistance isn't available any more?

Also, my mum had a home help from SS. I've not heard of that for ages, but it looks sensible to me.

And if the mother NEEDS more than one man tested, make her pay the costs of the DNA tests on all except the REAL father. That way the state doesn't bear the cost

For the families that the piece in the paper talks about, they usually have SS intervention and on the birth of the baby, SS pay for the paternity test.

This cannot be changed as it comes under 'acting in the best interests of the child'.

The same applies to families not known to services.

It is the Paramouncy Principle stated in the Children's Act.

All potential fathers have parenting assessments done on them. It was a surprise to me how willing the men were to go through with this, but they come from backgrounds that are used to statutory intrusion.

I agree with you on this Couthy, men do need to be forced to take more financial responsibility when they won't do it willingly. It is disgusting that so many men can bugger off and pay nothing and give nothing emotionally to people that they create. I actually can't get my head round that level of selfishness.

I think that's partly why I think putting responsibility (not blame) on women is a good idea, because in general they at least love their children and do their best by them. It's their lives that are chaotic if they have more children than they can emotionally and financially provide for, so it makes sense to target them.

If the government was interested in solving the problem long term then they coud invest in family planning services having clinics at Children's Centres, or even in schools. Set up something simelar to the blood donation service where there is a team of people in a variety of easily accessible locations available to give advice and provide contraception. I think targeting women in this way woud also help them to feel that they are valued by society, which can help prevent the emotional reasons why some women have too many children. Too often, being ante or post natal is the only time in their lives that some women get any scrap of attention or care given to them.

The men are usually as much emotionally damaged as the women, in the families that this piece talks about (not just LP, but very dysfunctional families).

They do think that they are creating a family, at last, but then neither of them are equiped to sustain this.

Addiction, criminality and abusive behaviour are factors as to why things don't workout. All of which need good adult services.

There are Family Planning services that visit all of the Children's Centre's that i work with and all Parenting Classes have one day focusing on contraception.

This isn't an access to contraception problem.

Really? I find it hard to get the contraception I wanted and I'm a fully self sufficient parent.

I ended up not using the coil that I wanted to try because I was told by my surgery that I couldn't pre book an appointment so had to join in the scramble on the phone at 8am, and that it was only done by one doctor on Tuedays and it was best to be done while I was on my period. Which made it extremely difficult for me to get the contraception I wanted. And now my children are school age, I know nothing of children's centres, but I still need contraception!

The families that Casey talks about have intense intervention, contraception is discussed with the by all services and the GP appointment system doesn't apply to them, SS get them on a priorty system.

They usually have HV's etc visiting them.

They have to attend the Children's Centre for classes. It is a different system for 'families known to services'.

Through all the years of worrying and complaining about the very poor and the very dysfunctional, there's a method of addressing the problem that hasn't been tried and that's altering MEN's behaviour It's about time more blame was put on the men who abuse their wives and DC, who impregnate lots of women and then vanish, who insist on PIV sex even though the women are concerned about the possibility of unwanted pregnancy - and the men who are just lazy, selfish and unsatisfactory eg won't do any childcare or domestic work, spend the family money on drink/drugs/their own hobbies. In dysfunctional families (as opposed to just poverty-stricken ones) it is nearly always men's behaviour that is causing the dysfunction, simply because society is still based on the idea that women and children belong to men and a man can do what he likes with 'his' family.

Fair enough Birds, that's something I don't know a huge amount about tbh. But if women are getting support, why do they choose to continue to make bad choices? Surely they are at least as responsible for that as the men?

As individuals, we can't take responsibility for other peoples choices, only our own. While there may be men that are happy to sow their seed wherever they want, that doesn't mean that we as women have to allow them to do so. We should be capable of saying no, or of accepting responsibility if we don't.

Both the men and women are products of their upbringing/addiction, though, so often the men cannot be held anymore to 'blame' as the women.

In the assessment that i have carried out, i don't agree that it is always the mens behaviour that causes the problems and a lot of that behaviour, when talking about MH problems are out of his control.

"But if women are getting support, why do they choose to continue to make bad choices? Surely they are at least as responsible for that as the men?"

Very often they are looking to fulfil an inner need that they are not going to with a relationship. They are often not able to have good friendships, as 'normal' people avoid them as they are 'known to services'.

There are a lot of personality/MH conditions amongst these familes, largely ignored/undiagnosed until a few children later.

The men, in the familes that i work in,they are not just abandoning their families, there are intrenched problems that only having intensive adult services will solve.

The "family czar" 's report is the result of her work with the sixteen so-called worst problem families in the UK. She acknowledges that people need help eg to get everyone out of the house and to school/nursery/work with full stomachs in the morning, and her actual suggestion is that penalties be applied only where no effort is being made to engage with the authorities and make use of the help available.

Many of her ideas are patronising and offensive, but she is being misrepresented on this thread.

Birds, in my town, all longer-acting contraception is done at one centre. It is on the 'deprived' estate. Which from any other area of our town requires two buses each way, in the evening (clinic runs from 7.30-9pm). It's hard to get a babysitter at that time of night, the buses don't connect very well, and as they give no appointments and it is first come, first served, you may not even get SEEN on a busy night. Which you won't know until the end of the clinic. That only runs once a month.

Not all PCT's offer the same level of services, Birds.

And though my friends and I may not live on the 'deprived ward' of our town, there are still plenty of people on this estate that would fit the bill. Services like you are on about are only available on that one estate. Our Children's centre is closed down now.

We have to catch two buses each way to get to the closest Children's centre, so can't access any of the groups due to school runs.

I accept that where you are, the services may be far better, but they AREN'T in this area. And it is mostly due to that that I can count at least 12 families off the top of my head that have 4+ DC's.

Logistics DOES make a difference. The suggestion of making access to long term contraception similar to blood donations might help in our area, if it was daytime. The problem with a lot of these clinics is that they run in the evening to make time for those that work, but they don't run in the daytime, which would be far easier for the unemployed Lone Parent to get childcare for!

How many Lone Parents do you know that are able to work evenings and weekends? Not many. So why are these contraceptive clinics run in the evening when they can't get childcare?

It's a really big bugbear of mine. And as they combine the long-term contraceptive clinic with the sexual health clinic, it's always busy and hard to get seen.

And a LOT of the men in this situation refuse point blank to have a vasectomy, despite the PCT being happy to do them on any man over 30 with two DC's. A Woman who has two DC's can't get sterilised here till they are 38!!

The women often end up single when they refuse PIV sex, because they aren't fulfilling their 'duties', through fear of pregnancy...

The men a) Force themselves on the women, b) Have PIV with another woman (often getting HER pg), or c) Leave.

The men believe that they ate entitled to PIV, and if the woman doesn't oblige through lack of contraception and/or fear of pregnancy, the man involved 9 times out of ten will do one of the above 3 things. Leaving the mother as a Lone Parent.

How can people blame the WOMAN for that!!

Perhaps these men need to keep their trousers zipped up. Seriously our society is obsessed with sex. Perhaps some abstinence would be a good thing.

oh crumbs I sound like Mary Whitehouse.

these men sound such selfish individuals and the women pretty spineless with everything revolving around non committment but being made to have sex.

Maybe they enjoy sex?

Just a thought.

Couthy- so you do not have a GUM clinic attached to a hospital?

Are you talking about families known to services, or the general population?

Family Support Workers will drive women to appointments, it can be part of their plan, if they agree. Mobile contraceptive units can be used, if access problems are an issue identified by SS, for their famlies.

The families talked about, are not just LP's (as said), this isn't a case of men just leaving, or women forced into having sexual relationships.

The senario's of men just leaving does not happen with my families and once the children have been removed,the fathers turn up for supervised contact, sometimes more than the mums, but at least at the same rate.

The women are not anymore 'victims' of their situation than the men.

They both generally have come through abusive childhoods, the prison system, etc.

The problem is there is an ever increasing number of people who are completely disconnected with the rest of society and behave in a highly dysfunctional way, they then pass this on to their children who continue the cycle. Its difficult to know what to about these people as the public has little sympathy or tolerance for these people and this makes any large and potentially costly intervention politically impossible as most people do not want their taxes spent on these people, added to this the track record of any such schemes is pretty poor.

How do you know the number is increasing?