DD refusing to consider Oxbridge: are her reasons valid?

[ArtichokeDip]

DD is in year 12 at our local school. She has never related to the studious high achieving crowd at school. They are not the people she finds it easy to be friends with. She is quite a hedonist and enjoys parties, clubs, dancing, long nights out.

At GCSE she got exceptional grades for her school: 5x9, 4x8. Her passio is English Lit and she wants to study that at uni. Her A-level English teacher says she is already consistently working at A star level and that seems to be true for History and for RE too. This week the school asked her to join a new Oxbridge application prep group they are trailing . DD declined.

DD is convinced she won’t make friends at Oxbridge because she believes everyone will be very studious and there will be few people who enjoy nights out like she likes. She says there will be too much study and not enough fun. Are these valid reasons? How much is it worth pushing back and trying to change her mind? She currently only dreams of applying to big Northern city unis with busy night lives: Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle. All great places but is it crazy not to explore Oxbridge applications if you have a chance?

Blimey that was an unnecessarily horrible response. We're all different, and have different experiences and expectations. I didn't like Newcastle as a city in the 6 years i was there. I went back recently and still didn't. Your dd might like different things.

Of course her reasons are valid. She will be much happier somewhere she fits in.

Happier people are more likely to be successful people.
She doesn't want to go to Oxbridge. You want her to go to Oxbridge.

I agree with your daughter. I was similarly against Oxbridge but for different reasons. I didn't like what I perceived to be the traditional aspect and wanted a more modern forward thinking uni, I also wanted to be in London. Oxbridge wasn't "me". I went to a v highly rated London uni and did very well. I actually don't think I would be where I am now if I had been to Oxbridge and I don't think that would have been a good thing (really happy with my chosen career!). Teachers were very annoyed I wouldn't consider Oxbridge but I'm glad I didn't.

Working in the media is wildly competitive, even being an Oxbridge graduate won't always help, also the pay is terrible- you would be better looking for a different sort of job. I went for jobs like you describe which had literally thousands of candidates for a handful of positions, if you didn't edit your school magazine and do related work experience in your summer holidays, as well as going to Oxbridge then forget working in the media.

My ds is at Oxford now and says he and a few others have commented that there isn't enough clubbing going on and he only went twice (I think) in his first term. There is socialising but not necessarily clubbing, and it does vary between colleges. He recently went on a coach for a sporting thing against the sister (or whatever they call it) college at Cambridge and some WhatsApp group blew up afterwards with people complaining about the karaoke on the bus back as they had to study on the Sunday morning (my son was one of the singers...) So it's varied. Workload is definitely high and ds has commented about a few people who seem only to study and sleep but not everyone is like that.

I think it a shame for the dd not to even join the group but if she has her heart set in being in a Northern city it does make sense and I'm sure won't hold her back at all.

Probably stupid question, but what did your dc like about Bristol law? What are, in your/their view, the selling points in terms of the actual course? TY

Perhaps it was less lack of work ethic and more feeling like the job/colleagues were beneath them

Anecdotally, I’m currently corresponding by email with a recent Cambridge graduate in a professional context. They’re in a junior, entry‑level role, yet seem to regard the work and the people they are meant to support as utterly beneath them 🤔.

The combination of condescension, a patronising tone, and an inability to handle basic administrative tasks is laughable. It's a pattern I’ve noticed among some Oxbridge graduates who haven’t transitioned into successful professional careers. Inflated sense of self and status paired with a sheer lack of competence and professional communication skills. These people are out of touch.

The teaching and assessment are qualitatively very different at Oxbridge to other universities. That suits some people, though personally I am increasingly dubious about the Oxbridge teaching model. Other world class universities have changed and developed their teaching and assessment models in recent years and allow for greater progress over three years IMO, though this may be quite subject dependent. One of our DC, currently at a London university, has had several "all Oxbridge" (ie BA/MA/PhD) tutors and they are consistently terrible at running seminars whereas tutors from other backgrounds have been absolutely fantastic at running seminars.

I have a dc at Oxford who goes clubbing every night ... having said that the clubs are obviously not the same scale as in London or Manchester. But her friends at London unis prefer the Oxford scene when they visit - fewer pervy guys buying young girls drinks, cheaper, no huge queues to get in ...

Anyway, OP, you absolutely can go to Oxbridge (well maybe not Cambridge where I went and where the nightlife was pitiful but it MAY have improved) and party every night if that's what you want. DD immediately found people like her, so they do exist (there are a lot of stereotypically nerdy people too and they do them and all is fine), and they have a ball. She's also apparently on course for a first - this does require a certain mentality but dd has never needed much sleep and likes to be busy every second of the day and night.

However, your dd does need to go and have a look and decide if the vibe's right for her before dismissing joining the Oxbridge group. If it isn't, it's by far from the end of the world. You yourself have said times are so uncertain let them follow their heart.

In a lot of cases where a parent was successful in changing a student's intention from the one they were aiming for, I've known the student to be quite unhappy, and often change course or location in Yr 1 to something that was more what they were wanting.

It would be really important for your DD to work (or gain work experience) in holidays if she is interested in taking English where competition is going to be high both before and after uni, and wants more of a party lifestyle in term. Friends are important, but if she values the course and the work then at some stage she will presumably find a good level in terms of socialising and achieving, as they will probably figure out that it's not effortless.

Look up the Oxbridge reading lists and possibly, course modules, compared to other places. She may find that these really light up her interest, or that a different course outline would be a lot more interesting to her. I was a languages student and the course types on offer were either quite traditional and literature-heavy, or real departures with international politics and specific translation training, which I was really interested in (but didn't end up taking, so never got that side of it at all in the end).

@Ormally I very much concur with your point - it's unbelievably important for a course of university study to meet an individual's specific interests. This is often an argument in favour of larger schools/departments with a deeper/broader range of academic researchers and a greater choice of modules, since it is often not the case that A-level students are completely sure of their preferences which evolve during their time at university. The more modules on offer, the greater the chance of studying what really interests you!

Ceramiq, yes, it's a very different kettle of fish when you are not in the school and the 16-18 curriculum that you were pretty comfortable with, and where the goal was to get your uni place. It opens your eyes as to the huge potential of where you could steer with your abilities, and the experts who are at the cutting edge of those areas.

Having 8s isn’t an issue. I don’t know why people spread these misconceptions. There aren’t enough students in the country who get all 9s to fill Oxford and Cambridge and some of those wouldn’t get in anyway. My dd has been offered a place to study Law with 7 9s and 3 8s at GCSE. They also contextually view GCSES in terms of the overall cohort of your school.

Ultimately though - if dd doesn’t want to go that’s her choice. And those GCSES absolutely are exceptional from a normal state school.

I had similar experience.

I also think the "Golden Ticket" idea is much exaggerated, most of my contemporaries who've gone on to be highly successful you could have guessed that from their first day in the place.

@Fatsnowflake 7 x 9? Not that msny get that either!!! Honestly!

i think she sounds great and very sure of her priorities. She just needs a good degree. Avoiding oxbridge sounds very reasonable tbh

This is from a 2021 FOI request. Just to correct the misinformation on this thread as I do not want bright state school students to mistakenly believe Oxbridge isn’t for them if they do want to apply.

Average number of GCSE 9s (Oxford UG, UCAS 2021 cycle)

• All applicants: 4.77 9s
• All offer-holders: 6.12 9s
• State-school applicants: 4.45 9s
• State-school offer-holders: 5.82 9s

It’s only the first year where students have to study Old and Middle English and then if they choose course 2, which most students do, it’s from Shakespeare to the present day. It is quite traditional though.

Oxbridge English really isn’t super competitive these days because it’s not very popular, sadly. It’s not particularly attractive to overseas students so you’re only competing with UK applicants, and it’s not so popular with ethnic minority students in UK - very different from stem.

She needs to research other unis, clearly Oxbridge isn’t for her and that’s fine. UCL or Durham maybe? Her reasons are valid even if they aren’t valid for you, you’re not the one attending uni.

Oxford say that they count grade 9s and 8s as being of equal value at GCSE. They also look at whether the applicant's grades were in the top 10% of their cohort t school, apparently,

I completely agree multicultural British students find the emphasis on historic white English men on the syllabus hard to relate to and may prefer a more multicultural ie big city setting with a more diverse syllabus.

I have thought for a long time that Oxbridge needs to diversify with a course in Comparative literature in English which would focus on world writing across different cultures and allow students to study great works in translation.

This is reassuring, thank you. My DD was so disappointed with 'only' 3 9s 5 8s and 3 7s.

the offer rate for English is under 25 percent, I would say that is competitve. In the last cycle they were over 900 applicants.