DD refusing to consider Oxbridge: are her reasons valid?

[ArtichokeDip]

DD is in year 12 at our local school. She has never related to the studious high achieving crowd at school. They are not the people she finds it easy to be friends with. She is quite a hedonist and enjoys parties, clubs, dancing, long nights out.

At GCSE she got exceptional grades for her school: 5x9, 4x8. Her passio is English Lit and she wants to study that at uni. Her A-level English teacher says she is already consistently working at A star level and that seems to be true for History and for RE too. This week the school asked her to join a new Oxbridge application prep group they are trailing . DD declined.

DD is convinced she won’t make friends at Oxbridge because she believes everyone will be very studious and there will be few people who enjoy nights out like she likes. She says there will be too much study and not enough fun. Are these valid reasons? How much is it worth pushing back and trying to change her mind? She currently only dreams of applying to big Northern city unis with busy night lives: Manchester, Leeds, Newcastle. All great places but is it crazy not to explore Oxbridge applications if you have a chance?

Look at how much rent costs in most student cities. Bristol and Edinburgh are notoriously expensive, and a "less expensive city" might have a worse reputation in that subject or as a uni generally. The dearth of student hall places might see you reliant on private halls which are much more expensive (there are loads of these in my student-heavy city). Your course may not even give you time to take on part time work if it's heavy on labs/practicals. Oxbridge discourages students from working part time at all.

Also, it's not a given that you'll find work in the holidays to top up your loans. My parents lived in an economically depressed area where jobs were hard to come by - retail jobs are hella hard to come by these days (see the Guardian article from a few days ago) and not always willing to take someone on who will leave a couple of months later unless it's Christmas temp season - the glut of sixth-formers and returning students every summer far outstrips the staff needed anyway. Office temping often requires office experience (I struggled to get taken on by temp agencies the summer after graduation until I got some) And when I did find a job as a cleaner in the summer between my A-levels and uni, the boss was a horrific inverted snob who assumed I thought I was better than everyone else (to be clear: no, one of my closest friends was a full-time cleaner) so there's also that if you're from a town like mine.

Perhaps it was less lack of work ethic and more feeling like the job/colleagues were beneath them - either way the work didn't get done and we spent a lot of time cleaning up the messes they made with clients.

And yes, the 80s-90s very different - the most notable thing for me over the past decade is how many junior staff are still living at home with family, not moving to the city and housesharing to start careers as we did, because between rents and student loans it's just not affordable. So your pool of junior staff is limited to those who grew up near Expensive Area, or can be subsidised by family to move to Expensive Area whilst their career gets underway.

This! I was similar to your DD 20yrs ago and am forever grateful i followed my heart to one of thread big Northern city unis... didn't even look at oxbridge and when I went to visit a family member there in my 3rd year I felt vindicated as the vibe would have suffocated me completely.

Your daughters reasons may sound silly to some but she seems to know herself and what she personally wants from uni and life and I think thats worth respecting and encouraging. Im glad my parents trusted me to choose!

Everyone i know who went to Oxbridge had a terrible and very stressful time leaving with anxiety etc

Let her have a nice uni experience

English is no longer one of the most competitive subjects! Doesn’t even make the top 10. Offer rate is about 25% at Oxford, very similar to Cambridge. Knowing an Oxford English tutor I can say they are crying out for applicants who have read anything - anything! - beyond the A level syllabus. Really disheartening.

Re. OP, I wld see this as a learning opportunity for your DD to investigate for herself beyond stereotypes - visit, explore, talk to existing students - and then decide, based on her research and experience. Ruling something out on the basis of stereotypes is silly.

It sounds like it’s not for your DD. Both of my DC went, and had nights out, went clubbing etc. However, when DD visited friends in Leeds and Sheffield she couldn’t keep up! For her Oxford was the right choice because there was less partying.

Agree on all points.

I think she has a fair point- if the Oxbridge candidates are less likely to be friend material- it seems shallow to want to go to uni because of the social life- but to be honest studying English literature is unlikely to help you with your career(unless you want to teach) whether you go to Oxbridge Newcastle or Manchester.
You seem to be ambitious for your daughter-so I would spend less time trying to guide her to a higher achieving university and direct you energies towards what you think she will be able to do with her degree once she has it.
I did an arts degree, in a varied career of 40 years duration my degree didn't help me get a position or earn more in a position- I'd think about that rather than Oxbridge versus red brick.

Not "everyone" at Oxbridge is depressed and riddled with anxiety. Many of them thrive in that academic environment, do well and have exciting careers.

It's up for the DD to decide if Oxbridge English is right for her.

@Laurmolonlabe - ‘studying English literature is unlikely to help your career whether you studied at Oxbridge Manchester or Newcastle’ simply isn’t true tbh. I work in the media industry and bluntly, if we’re recruiting for a graduate entry level role, we would initially be more interested a candidate who has a degree in English from Oxford than a degree in English from Newcastle.

That’s at the application stage of course, and if the candidate from Newcastle shines more at interview over the Oxford candidate, the Newcastle graduate would get the job! But to suggest it makes zero difference where your degree is from at the start of your career isn’t right.

How many though?

All my Cambridge friends had a great time. Of all my friends who went to Oxbridge in general one struggled in her second year of Oxford but that was related to what was going on with her family.

Many if not most students choose Oxbridge because they’re academic and like academic study. They may have been to a super-selective, whether private or state, in which case they’re well-prepared and used to the workload.

But York is smaller than Oxford! Lovely place but definitely not a big city.

I agree that choosing a subject you love is far more important than second-guessing what the job market will be like in 3 or 4 years' time. It sounds to me like your daughter will thrive at university and knows her own mind. There's a lot more to being at university than just getting a degree. I wish her well.

really? Everyone know who went loved it, I know people who went to Oxford for first degree and Cambridge for masters. Can’t have been that bad

Also worth mentioning that Oxbridge tends to be a lot cheaper than other places because (almost all) colleges only charge for term time accommodation

I think your dd’s right and knows her own mind - for clubbing and long nights out, somewhere like Newcastle or Manchester would be great. Yes, you can go clubbing in Oxford or Cambridge, but with the short, intense terms, it would be harder to make them a regular feature - they are more clubs and societies and late night essay crisis sorts of places than regular nightclubs and partying into the early hours sorts of places. She will need to do her research to find the best place to get a balance between quality of course and quality of nightlife, but it does sound as though she would be likely to find Oxbridge claustrophobic.

I disagree about Newcastle being a weird city for students. It's a great place to be a student.

DD did her undergrad in Newcastle and loves the city so much that when she qualifies from her masters she will look for work in Newcastle.

Many moons ago I was interviewed and offered a place at Cambridge. I turned it down and am glad I did. I'd got carried away with the idea of the status and image of an Oxbridge degree for a while. I wasn't thinking so much about where was the best uni for partying but was put off by the high flying upper class vibe at the time. I would have been a fish out of water and most likely the weakest academically! It's probably more diverse now. However, it's not for everyone regardless of ability.

Agree. DD was at Durham and they often took the 10 min train to Newcastle do shopping or bigger nights out.

Me too! The trains used to run until about 2/3am. Good times!

Glad to hear some people liked it. Maybe it's improved since i was there, but a recent visit suggested the opposite.

What was wrong with Newcastle?

@RampantIvy see here. It was long ago, but i was so disappointed. Difficult to feel part of a city as a non local state school student. I was verbally and physically abused by locals for being a student and didn't fit in with the students who went fox hunting with the royal family. I made some friends of course, but didn't love my time there sadly. I had places at Liverpool and Glasgow and would give my eye teeth(?) to do it all again and go to either of those instead. Finding it so hard to advise my dd.

Edited for sausage fingers

None of my children would try as they said balancing the amount of effort in the application process against their chances of getting a place it wasn't worth the effort (their views, not mine and I have no views either way - my siblings (younger) both went to oxbridge and I didn't try (as my school said I was too young - very weird reason; I was a year young at school but that would not have been an issue I am sure. Three of my London lawyer children went to Bristol, didn't try Oxbridge.

Bristol is good for night life and parties by the way and close to London. My Bristol three loved it and did well in their studies too.

You must have met the wrong people.

State educated, vegetarian, Yorkshire born DD found her tribe at Newcastle. If you are saying that the city hasn't improved since you first visited I would suggest that the problem isn't the city itself.